Mothering ability

[certherfbeef]

There always seems to be a couple of cows in every herd that will lay up somewhere with a bunch of calves with them while the other Moms are off wandering around. Maybe its Bovine Day Care. :lol:

Our cattle do that all the time. Usually the most recient to calve has the longest babysitting shift and the most often.

 

[sidney411]

I guess I'm not too lucky in the defensive cattle business. My cows don't seem to care what is in the pasture with them. Neighbors dogs come up and they do well to even turn their head to look at them. We have never worked our cows with dogs. We do have 2 dogs that are on 'dog runs' most of the time. They bark at them sometimes, the calves seem to tease the dogs too. I have had a few calves come up missing these last few years. I think it is predators. Just this weekend I had a cow calve, she left the calf laying in one pasture and went off to graze. The neighbor called telling me we had a sick or dead calf that was just laying there by itself. We went out and picked him up, he started bawling his little head off. Momma just looked at us and went back to grazing. Maybe she just knew it was us, I dunno. Not very aggresive to be an Angus.

 

[Craig-TX]

In my own experience I've never seen a good cowdog that any cow or bull could handle. One of the big differences between a cowdog and a coyote is that the coyote will go after the babies. And they go for a kill in the throat. A cowdog will go after the adult cows just as readily as a calf, trying to turn them and work them from the rear. They are two distinctly different types of behavior.

Craig-TX

Coyotes and wolves other favorite spot to attack is the hind quarter/hamstring. The young of course die as they get eaten alive and the older yearlings cattle and sheep will survive a little while longer. The theres the attacks of what I call "sport" - injury or kill the animal without eating one bite. Pups that are learning how to attack are the worst terrorizer Never kill the victim but leave a bloody mess and a live animal that we have to shoot anyway. One case with a wolf on a yearling steer, you could never tell that he was attacked until he died a day or 2 later and they did the autopsy holes in the hide and the muscle looked like hamburger when the wolf bit in - Sheer force there.

Maybe so with wolves, I don't claim to know much about them. I've never heard of coyotes killing a calf by attacking its hindquarters. They will do that on small animals but it's in order to hold them down until they can crush the animal's head or shake it to death like a dog. It's hard to imagine coyotes killing a healthy yearling. That would take more than one pack I would think. Coyotes never engage in sport killing, or at least that's not a problem here. Dogs are notorious for it, especially with sheep, but not coyotes.

Craig-TX

 

[cattle_gal]

Maybe so with wolves, I don't claim to know much about them. I've never heard of coyotes killing a calf by attacking its hindquarters. They will do that on small animals but it's in order to hold them down until they can crush the animal's head or shake it to death like a dog. It's hard to imagine coyotes killing a healthy yearling. That would take more than one pack I would think. Coyotes never engage in sport killing, or at least that's not a problem here. Dogs are notorious for it, especially with sheep, but not coyotes.

Craig-TX

Oh Craig please don't sound like those predator lovers and say coyotes never engage in sport killing. That's like saying they only kill the sick,weak and old. I've been fighting the predator lovesr for how long now - 10 years. Not so much since Bush was elected into office. And they haven't much liked me being so up front and rather blunt in Ag newspaper commentaries with the children that are doing classrooom pro wolf/coyote projects. Those projects are another thing that not been so much of around the country since Bush has been in office.

Coyotes are only a smaller version of wolves. And a once good livestock dog that goes bad is no different. Once they get blood in their mouth you can never stop it except with fast lead.

But let me tell you coyotes and wolves love sport killing. We lost 1/2 of our band the last year we were in the sheep business, because of coyotes and bobcats. It's not very comforting to watch a coyote run through the band and as fast as he could run he was snapping necks as quickly. And that is was not a rare instance. And couldn't shoot them as they were doingit either. They never stopped running after they got out of the sheep jsut kept going just as fast. Things got bad after Nixon banned 24D.

They do like to hit calves and sheep in the hind. The yearling instances I was speaking of are with the wolves. But we have had chunks of rear taken out of yearlings a few times about 20 years ago. Have since gotten out of sheep and yearlings. You see Craig there is a reason why we needed to enhance the mother cows instincts. Life is very different up here in the high mountains verus the south and the lower valleys away from the mountains. Especially where predator lovers want predators to flourish which happens to be where livestock is.

Here's a site I'd like you to take a look at- Montana Life

 

[SPRINGER FARMS MURRAY GRE]

The murray Grey's are excellent mothers!! :cboy:

 

[Craig-TX]

Oh Craig please don't sound like those predator lovers…

Oh cattle_gal please don't get started characterizing me that way. Before you shoot your mouth off you should either take the trouble to read my record here on predators or keep your mouth shut. My record on predators and their so-called rights speaks for itself. It's there for the looking if you want to read it. Look at the archives.

…and say coyotes never engage in sport killing.

I'll stand by my remark. They don't, certainly not with cattle which is the subject of this thread. Maybe you have a different kind of coyote there. Around here they are wild enough that they're not going to waste energy on something like that. And they don't. This is a cattle board and the question was about calves. Further, I stand by my remark when it comes to sheep. Dogs are much worse than wild predators when it comes to sport-killing sheep.

That's like saying they only kill the sick,weak and old.

Are you saying they go after the healthy, strong and young cattle?

I've been fighting the predator lovesr for how long now - 10 years.

Well power to you! I've been fighting the predators themselves for a lot longer than that.

But let me tell you coyotes and wolves love sport killing.

Let me tell you they don't down here in Texas.

We lost 1/2 of our band the last year we were in the sheep business, because of coyotes and bobcats. It's not very comforting to watch a coyote run through the band and as fast as he could run he was snapping necks as quickly. And that is was not a rare instance. And couldn't shoot them as they were doingit either. They never stopped running after they got out of the sheep jsut kept going just as fast.

Well, there's another difference between you and the way it works down here. We shoot anyway. What do you want the coyote to do, stop and strike a pose for you while you brace good and draw a bead?

Things got bad after Nixon banned 24D.

They were bad before. But if you've only been at it for ten years you can't remember.

They do like to hit calves and sheep in the hind. The yearling instances I was speaking of are with the wolves.

No they don't. Not coyotes. They don't kill their prey that way. If you're taking about wolves, I'm not experienced and can't comment. Which is why I'm not shooting my mouth off about them.

But we have had chunks of rear taken out of yearlings a few times about 20 years ago.

Not by coyotes. Coyotes go after the young. And contrary to what you say, the do go after the sick, weak and old. They don't have enough butt on them to take down a yearling or a grown cow/bull. Unless you're growing some mighty big coyotes up there. Down here a coyote probably averages 30# and a 50# coyote would be a trophy.

You see Craig there is a reason why we needed to enhance the mother cows instincts… Especially where predator lovers want predators to flourish which happens to be where livestock is.

Get off you high horse cattle gal. You're preaching to the choir. And it ain't no ignorant choir. BTW, exactly how do you go about enhancing a mother cow's instincts?

Here's a site I'd like you to take a look at- Montana Life

I looked. Where are all the calves that were killed for sport? And how do you know it was coyotes?

Craig-TX

 

[Campground Cattle]

Well put Craig

I want to know how you get them coyotes to pose all I ever shot where in a dead run.

 

[Jake]

Well put Craig

I'll second that

 

[CattleAnnie]

Pertaining to the original question of cows that will aggressively defend their young:

I lost five calves to wolves out in the pasture this grazing season (overall losses in the community pasture membership numbered 28 calves and 10 cows), and for what it's worth, every cow of mine that had angus in it's background brought back a live calf. I've also noticed that when I'm working the stock with my collies, it's the angus that will usually face up the dog and try and run 'em off. Mind you, the only cow that's ever rolled me at calving time was a sassy fat old hereford...in my defense I was pregnant at the time and not terribly fleet of foot (to say the least).

Take care.

 

[cattle_gal]

Craig

Yes the topic is cattle. Calves are cattle.

The choir (as you say) needs to see some different sheet music from different regions. Get on your horse and travel. Time to consider living up here and talk to many ranchers in the mountains on how coyotes and wolves do the sport killing and attacking here. They love to kill the young and healthy the last thing they want to eat is the old and sick. Nay saying that coyotes don't sport kill is like me saying there are no rattle snakes in the US, since there isn't any here at the ranch. Just because they aren't here doesn't mean that they aren't most places.

You've been telling me how your cattle and predators are down there and I've been telling you how mine are here, but you won't except it. I guess everyone is supose to have the same cattle and predator actions. Did i ever say that coyotes don't act that way down there no or that cattle don't run from predators, no. Obvously your coyotes are different than ours. To much human garbage to rumage around in and get a meal prehaps. Not the case here.

Did I specifically say that only calves were getting killed by the sport kilings. No. In fact hum isn't that what I've been instilling in my mother cows to prevent these attacks from happening. Not to have history and other ranches misfortunes happen with our cattle. And if you had been reading my posts at all about our cattle you would see how I hieghten there instincts.

Been at it for 10 years? Missed somethings there didn't you. Since when is predator lovers and predator the same thing. Ones 2 legged and the other is 4 legged. Didn't know that Nixon was president 10 years ago either. There was little coyote problems here before the 24D was banned. If you had been keeping track of the pro predator movement you would know that it has been 10 years since they have been heavy into protecting and planting any predator. Thus alot of people have been in action to try to get those people from running over the ranchers. If you haven't had these group shoving the predators and the regulations down your throat in Texas your lucky.

Didn't I already say that the yearling was got by a wolf. No need to make it sound like I said other wise. And I didn't say that the coyote killed the yearling, don't make it sound as if I did. Nor did I at anytime say that a coyote killed a cow or bull.

Wow you'd shoot into your livestock that is together to try and get a shot at a coyote. He gets 1 you get 2, he gets 1 you get 2. What kind of statement is it to say you'd shoot anyway, that's really logical.

Ever been in tracking snow? Then you know what killed things. Summer time you don't know if it is predator or poison unless unless you stake out.

You just love to contradict don't you. Get a good kick out of it.

You do what you do with your cattle operation and I'll do what I do with mine.


Campground, What are these photos of coyotes posing you talking about?

 

[Campground Cattle]

Thought you had the pics of coyotes posing I just wanted to know how you got them to do it , I have to shoot mine running.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Craig and Camp what are you two old Cattlemen doing arguing with this gal . Yall could take some lessons in training cattle in mothering ability and teach your bulls to be friendly to each other as housecats.

 

[rgv4]

But we have had chunks of rear taken out of yearlings a few times about 20 years ago.

Not by coyotes. Coyotes go after the young. And contrary to what you say, the do go after the sick, weak and old. They don't have enough butt on them to take down a yearling or a grown cow/bull. Unless you're growing some mighty big coyotes up there. Down here a coyote probably averages 30# and a 50# coyote would be a trophy.


Craig-TX

Here's my two cents on the coyote comments:

I don't know exactly where in Texas you live but, in the last two weeks, I have killed two coyotes that 1 weighed 85 lbs. and the other was just a few ounces shy of 100 lbs. There is a pack that has developed here that sounds like it probably has 15 to 20 in it, thanks to some of those fine real estate developers that have pushed them in on us. The other night there were at least five of them after a pen of yearlings. Needless to say when they left there were only four. When you have a predator that is that big and hunting together, they will go after any size prey.

 

[Texan]

There is a pack that has developed here that sounds like it probably has 15 to 20 in it, thanks to some of those fine real estate developers that have pushed them in on us.

Sounds like you need to use some of those evil real estate people to bait your traps with. You know, the ones who hold guns on people and force them to sign contracts to sell their property. They've got to be good for something. Maybe coyote bait?

 

[Craig-TX]

But we have had chunks of rear taken out of yearlings a few times about 20 years ago.

Not by coyotes. Coyotes go after the young. And contrary to what you say, the do go after the sick, weak and old. They don't have enough butt on them to take down a yearling or a grown cow/bull. Unless you're growing some mighty big coyotes up there. Down here a coyote probably averages 30# and a 50# coyote would be a trophy.


Craig-TX

Here's my two cents on the coyote comments:

I don't know exactly where in Texas you live but, in the last two weeks, I have killed two coyotes that 1 weighed 85 lbs. and the other was just a few ounces shy of 100 lbs. There is a pack that has developed here that sounds like it probably has 15 to 20 in it, thanks to some of those fine real estate developers that have pushed them in on us. The other night there were at least five of them after a pen of yearlings. Needless to say when they left there were only four. When you have a predator that is that big and hunting together, they will go after any size prey.

I live in central Texas like it says under my avatar. Where do you live that your seeing and killing 85-100# coyotes running in packs of 15 to 20? I'm very curious.

Craig-TX

 

[Craig-TX]

cattle_gal, you've blown some fairly serious smoke in other threads but in this particular exchange you got way out of line. Don't tell somebody here they "sound like those predator lovers" and carry on with all that condescension talk and expect them to lay low.

Craig-TX

 

[Dana Kopp]

I would have to agree with most of what everyone says...especially both Cattle_gal and Craig-TX - you both have excellent points, though why can't coyotes and other predators hunt slightly differently in different areas? Look at the differences in cattle from region to region, the differences in production method and the other "predator temptations" in every area and I would bet that there are differences between the predators. They may even adjust their attack method depending on the size and/or health of the animal - Coyotes (here) are known to bait dogs out to what looks like a one on one fight and then the rest of the coyotes attack when the dog is out in the open, they also have been known to kill a calf as it was being born.
One of our biggest predators during calving season here is the Eagle. Baldies only seem interested in afterbirth but the Goldens have been known to take calves. Last spring there were six Baldies and two Goldens that hung out in our pasture "cleaning up" early in the season - my mama cows finally chased them away but they were very persistent. Our other problem predator is neighbor dogs that are allowed to "run free because we live in the country". They can really run fast with a mad cow on their tail or a little buckshot to pepper their behinds!!!
One of our first cows was an old angus/hereford cow with a "stifled hip", she once chased one of my pet barn cats down the fence and up a tree and circled around until I chased her away twenty minutes later (I was still laughing). We now have a red angus cow that is the ultimate protector - she will do anything, including climbing up onto the truck's flatbed to protect her calf. Yes, she is dangerous in close quarters or if you grab her calf, but I can walk through the field and be fine - a dog, bird or coyote is another story. We also have seen mountain lion and wolf tracks across the river from us but so far none have come across (knocking on wood...)

 

[rgv4]

But we have had chunks of rear taken out of yearlings a few times about 20 years ago.

Not by coyotes. Coyotes go after the young. And contrary to what you say, the do go after the sick, weak and old. They don't have enough butt on them to take down a yearling or a grown cow/bull. Unless you're growing some mighty big coyotes up there. Down here a coyote probably averages 30# and a 50# coyote would be a trophy.


Craig-TX

Here's my two cents on the coyote comments:

I don't know exactly where in Texas you live but, in the last two weeks, I have killed two coyotes that 1 weighed 85 lbs. and the other was just a few ounces shy of 100 lbs. There is a pack that has developed here that sounds like it probably has 15 to 20 in it, thanks to some of those fine real estate developers that have pushed them in on us. The other night there were at least five of them after a pen of yearlings. Needless to say when they left there were only four. When you have a predator that is that big and hunting together, they will go after any size prey.

I live in central Texas like it says under my avatar. Where do you live that your seeing and killing 85-100# coyotes running in packs of 15 to 20? I'm very curious.

Craig-TX

You know Central Texas is a pretty big area.

Personally, I'm about 250 miles north north east of Houston.

 

[Dana Kopp]

A point to the original question...I mentioned this in my very first post. Have you ever seen any breed organization or breeder admit that his breed doesn't have good mothering ability???? This goes along with every characteristic that is considered valuable milking ability, mothering, gain, calving ease, etc. etc. These characteristics and their importance vary depending on where you live, your production methods and your type of operation. We attack each other's breeds pointing out faults compared to our breed choice or our specific bloodlines to promote our breed, often using often using the equivalent of racial stereotypes. If there was a truly perfect breed we all would have them - but there are breed varieties for a reason and differences (good or bad) within all breeds.
If you are going to a ranch to look at heifers or cows. Look, if you can at the dam, is she protective, a fence climber, a "I have a calf???" cow? Look at the herd in general - when a strange person or animal walks into the pasture or the corral, do they care? Do they attack?? Watch their body language to each other. When you are purchasing breeding stock don't just look only at the breed, body size, or the coat color, a black coat does nothing for you if she has no milk or steps on her calf because she doesn't pay attention to it...

 

[brokenmouth]

Craig you idiot its plain you dont know sh-t from wild honey when it comes to coyotes and cattle. There are places in the montains where they get big enough and bold enough that theyre a real problem for real cowmen. Theyve been known to bite a cowdog in half. You cant shoot em when theyre on the run cause theyre faster than a speeding bullet. Besides that you dont want to make em mad cause there so big and theres so many runnin together theyll just surround you and pull you off your horse. Theyll eat you and your horse. wont find nothin left but hooves and boot heels. Theyr worse than ferrel hogs. Those big mountain yotes will turn over pickups and push up stumps just for fun. You need to straighten up and forget everything you thought you knew and start payin atention to the likes of cattlegal and rgv4. They are killing record setting yotes and witnessing things that qualify them for all kinds of recognition. Besides theyre bound to have pictures theyre bound to be posting anytime now either here or on one of the ufo sites.If youll just shut up and sit in the corner for a while your liable to larn from those masters.