More about police...

[greybeard]

TB~ wished we were closer cause I'd like to run an experiment with you. I'd take a real Glock 19 and a toy look a like. You're the cop approaching me and when I turn around you have to decide if I'm pointing the real thing or toy at you. Decide wrong in that split second you have and you could easily have a dead person with a toy gun or your wife becomes a widow. My guess is you don't want your wife to be a widow.

If you (and the officers) gave that same split second benefit of doubt to the child, I'd be a whole lot more understanding. By every account I have read, it was all over within 3 seconds of the police car pulling to a stop. one thousand one-one thousand two-one thousand three--and a 12 year old is expected to react in a positive manner in that amount of time--less by some analyst's accounts. The driver of the police car didn't even have time to get out of the car and the child was dead.
I remember my youth pretty good, when I was 12. I'd probably be dead too, because I wouldn't have understood what the officer meant or what I was doing wrong holding a toy gun.

If good police and their superiors ostracized bad behaviour to the point that bad officers either left or were run out, then I'd be much much more supportive of an occasional mistake, but that is very very rarely the case. Chief Beck had an opportunity to do the right thing and he failed to do so--so did the LA District Attorney's office.

Just keeps on getting worse, don't it?

Probably will be, certainly for kids.

 

[Nesikep]

The courts are definitely partly to blame for all this... If the penalties were harsher and ENFORCED for violent criminals, there would be less of them on the street.. Of course if they're all over the street the cops are going to be more on edge because there's a greater chance that the person they're dealing with is a bad guy.
I thin GB has a good point.. if the cops with bad behavior were publicly denounced, it would restore faith in the whole force.. but just kicking it under the table and shuffling them off to another place isn't going to cut it.

I'm also saying the technology IS OUT THERE to subdue violent people without killing them.. so why are there so many fatalities?

 

[slick4591]

You are still arm chair policing, GB. When did you get involved in the original investigation? When did you sit by the chief and get ALL the facts? Did you sit on that grand jury? My guess is you have a conceived notion from whatever you read or watched on TV.

I know everyone sympathizes with a 12 year old and a toy, and wants to blame the big bad cop as he has to be a horrible person. And, when I say everyone that means me, too. Anytime a situation like this comes up I have to think of a question that was posed in one of the continuing training courses I went to. The question was: "Would you rather be killed by a 10 year, 40 year old or an 80 year old person?" No more information, no explaining your answer, just pick one. (I'd really like an answer.)

Back when we were kids the risks were not the same as today, therefore a different approach was taken in policing. Heck, I started in the mid 70's and things were majorly different than when I retired. You can't compare the time differences. Back then we had Officer Friendly that came to school once a year and now they have to have school resource officers inside the schools.

There's lots of things you're not giving consideration to. You're just to quick to jump up and point your finger.

 

[Dave]

I had a friend who got beaten within an inch of his life by some cops. He was in the right. The cops in the wrong. Good thing for him was that it all occurred in front of some people's house who were having a family reunion. They videoed the whole thing. He sued and won. He could have received more money if he had just settled. But he insisted that the main cops involved be fired and the others have it put into their permanent record. The cops fell all over themselves about that but he won out. He got less money but the cops who beat him will never get another job as a cop and the ones who lied under oath in court and said they weren't there have a pretty big black eye on their record.

 

[greybeard]

You are still arm chair policing, GB. When did you get involved in the original investigation? When did you sit by the chief and get ALL the facts? Did you sit on that grand jury? My guess is you have a conceived notion from whatever you read or watched on TV.

I know everyone sympathizes with a 12 year old and a toy, and wants to blame the big bad cop as he has to be a horrible person. And, when I say everyone that means me, too. Anytime a situation like this comes up I have to think of a question that was posed in one of the continuing training courses I went to. The question was: "Would you rather be killed by a 10 year, 40 year old or an 80 year old person?" No more information, no explaining your answer, just pick one. (I'd really like an answer.)

Back when we were kids the risks were not the same as today, therefore a different approach was taken in policing. Heck, I started in the mid 70's and things were majorly different than when I retired. You can't compare the time differences. Back then we had Officer Friendly that came to school once a year and now they have to have school resource officers inside the schools.

There's lots of things you're not giving consideration to. You're just to quick to jump up and point your finger.

What have I pointed my finger at, regarding those 3 incidents that is in error?
Criticising and questioning any and all parts of govt is my right under the US Constitution--and my responsibility as a citizen, and it always has been. There also, has always been and always will be those who wish to silence critics of any and all govt activities. I'm not one of them.
But I'll answer your questions. My opinion on the shootings regarding the 2 women and the surfer during the Dorner manhunt are based on information released by the police depts themselves. Same with the shooting of the child.
If you are privy to other information, spit it out--I'll listen.

"Would you rather be killed by a 10 year, 40 year old or an 80 year old person?" No more information, no explaining your answer, just pick one. (I'd really like an answer.)"
None of the above, but before I even take a chance on killing an innocent person, I'll risk my own life first. I too took an oath, and it has never been rescinded. Part of that oath was to protect the rights of the people of this country and among those rights are the unalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness--even if it meant forfeiting my life instead of someone else's.
I've been shot at lots and lots of times, and shot back lots and lots of times, but never never ever once considered returning fire unless I KNEW the person in my gunsight was a "bad guy". Rules of engagement.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

I had a friend who got beaten within an inch of his life by some cops. He was in the right. The cops in the wrong. Good thing for him was that it all occurred in front of some people's house who were having a family reunion. They videoed the whole thing. He sued and won. He could have received more money if he had just settled. But he insisted that the main cops involved be fired and the others have it put into their permanent record. The cops fell all over themselves about that but he won out. He got less money but the cops who beat him will never get another job as a cop and the ones who lied under oath in court and said they weren't there have a pretty big black eye on their record.

Got to be more to the story than this.

 

[Dave]

I had a friend who got beaten within an inch of his life by some cops. He was in the right. The cops in the wrong. Good thing for him was that it all occurred in front of some people's house who were having a family reunion. They videoed the whole thing. He sued and won. He could have received more money if he had just settled. But he insisted that the main cops involved be fired and the others have it put into their permanent record. The cops fell all over themselves about that but he won out. He got less money but the cops who beat him will never get another job as a cop and the ones who lied under oath in court and said they weren't there have a pretty big black eye on their record.

Got to be more to the story than this.

There is definitely more to the story but it is longer then I have time to type out. But the bottom line is he took a smaller settlement to make sure those cops lost their badges. Those gals in LA should have done the same. And police depts. shouldn't pay more so they can save some guys job. But I know that cops stick together like glue.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

I respect the fact you don't wish to give any further details and that's your right. So for now I'm left to assume your friend was minding his own business when the SWAT team rolled up and beat him to a bloody pulp totally unprovoked.

 

[Nesikep]

by the sound of it, they went beyond what was necessary force to subdue him... even if the reason they needed to was correct.

 

[greybeard]

I respect the fact you don't wish to give any further details and that's your right. So for now I'm left to assume your friend was minding his own business when the SWAT team rolled up and beat him to a bloody pulp totally unprovoked.

You are missing the whole point. It wasn't the beating so much, that was the issue--it was the cover-up by their fellow officers or the dept itself, the lying on the witness stand, and the protection of those officers jobs even if it meant committing perjury.
For me, the fact that those who gave false testimony and got caught at it and STILL kept their jobs with just an "aw pooh" in their record is very troubling. Theft of truth is the worst theft humankind can commit--theft of physical goods pales in comparison, as all "things" can be replaced. I despise liars above all else.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

by the sound of it, they went beyond what was necessary force to subdue him... even if the reason they needed to was correct.

I suppose.

In my younger and wilder days I had roughly 6 or 7 serious encounters with the law that sometimes ended in arrest but never was I roughed up or mistreated in any way. I always managed to find my best "yes sir, no sir" manners which seemed to ease the tension. Well, except for that time in Addison, TX but even then they never actually hit me.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

I respect the fact you don't wish to give any further details and that's your right. So for now I'm left to assume your friend was minding his own business when the SWAT team rolled up and beat him to a bloody pulp totally unprovoked.

You are missing the whole point. It wasn't the beating so much, that was the issue--it was the cover-up by their fellow officers or the dept itself, the lying on the witness stand, and the protection of those officers jobs even if it meant committing perjury.
For me, the fact that those who gave false testimony and got caught at it and STILL kept their jobs with just an "aw pooh" in their record is very troubling. Theft of truth is the worst theft humankind can commit--theft of physical goods pales in comparison, as all "things" can be replaced. I despise liars above all else.

I'd have to say I despise murderers, rapists, and wife beaters just a little more.

 

[greybeard]

There is that aspect, but perhaps I only despise liars equally but in a different way, tho I have very rarely heard of one of those types that didn't also lie. Some days I think liars are just a tad above child molesters--other days I think they are on equally bad footing. Honesty is attached to a man's name and if his name's no good, then he's no good.

 

[slick4591]

What have I pointed my finger at, regarding those 3 incidents that is in error?
Criticising and questioning any and all parts of govt is my right under the US Constitution--and my responsibility as a citizen, and it always has been. There also, has always been and always will be those who wish to silence critics of any and all govt activities. I'm not one of them.
But I'll answer your questions. My opinion on the shootings regarding the 2 women and the surfer during the Dorner manhunt are based on information released by the police depts themselves. Same with the shooting of the child.
If you are privy to other information, spit it out--I'll listen.

"Would you rather be killed by a 10 year, 40 year old or an 80 year old person?" No more information, no explaining your answer, just pick one. (I'd really like an answer.)"
None of the above, but before I even take a chance on killing an innocent person, I'll risk my own life first. I too took an oath, and it has never been rescinded. Part of that oath was to protect the rights of the people of this country and among those rights are the unalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness--even if it meant forfeiting my life instead of someone else's.
I've been shot at lots and lots of times, and shot back lots and lots of times, but never never ever once considered returning fire unless I KNEW the person in my gunsight was a "bad guy". Rules of engagement.

The pointed finger remark was said in a general tone. Seems like whenever law enforcement matters are brought up you always have the negative to say even without having all the facts. I was an investigator for 22 years and if I had referred cases for prosecution from just information out of the media I'd been laughed out of profession before I ever had my feet on the ground. One is never privy to the information that goes on behind those administration doors.

I'll agree, it's your right to speak it just like it's mine to try and point out any errors of judgment one may have in using that right.

Those rules of engagement you speak are no different than the ones I operated under. If someone points a gun at me they ARE a "bad guy".

BTW- you answered the little quiz correctly because dead is dead and it's for a long time. Makes no difference the age of the shooter. All I can say is if you're willing to wait long enough to see if there's a flash from the muzzle then you must want your name written on that wall pretty badly. Oh, maybe you'll never get to see the flash, but your widow will have a nice place to visit on the weekends.

 

[greybeard]

Maybe, but I'll have done the Most I could do to prevent the loss of an innocent life. My life is simply not worth another innocent person's life, I just don't put that much value on me, and never have. I'll never cure cancer, invent the next big thing, change the whole world for the better, but the person I DON'T kill, just might.

One is never privy to the information that goes on behind those administration doors.

Why not? Why the secrecy since it isn't a grand jury hearing? Explain to the public exactly why & how the determination was made instead of hiding it--it simply adds to the mistrust. You know what the police always say about things like that?
"If you're not doing anything wrong, you got nothing to worry about."

 

[I luv herfrds]

I respect a majority of cops but what happened today was crazy!
One of my co-workers has a busted right tail light. They got stuck in the snow with their car and were pushed out by a truck with a grill guard. It cracked the tail light lens.
The red lens recently fell out. She was planning on buying a new one on pay day, Monday.

Police chief came in the store and chewed her out in front of customers and co-workers! He then went out and took pictures of all sides of her car! I watched him do it.
She left her car parked and walked the eight blocks to her house. Later another cop came in tonight asking to talk to her about her tail light again! WTH! She had already left for the night.

They won't stop the drunk drivers or drug dealers but will bug this one woman about a broken lens on her tail light. The bulb still works.

 

[Nesikep]

I find whenever I see a police car, my blood pressure jumps 30 points, I just know that if they feel like being arseholes, they can find *something* that's not right... Around here you can go blue in the face replacing windshields from cracks.. it's certainly no use changing them out in the winter.. On his 4 hours drive home last time, my friend got no less than 5 BIG chips in his windshield.. it's already got cracks all over it, no doubt these new ones aren't going to help matters any. I have a crack in mine I'll fix in spring time.. it doesn't bother me and I can see fine, but it's not to the letter of the law.

Meanwhile if you have ever tried driving in the city and maintain a safe following distance to the car in front of you you're going to be endlessly cut off, and if that arsehole slams on his brakes, you're probably going to be the one found at fault.

 

[Nesikep]

Here's one in defense for the cops in Ferguson...
Don't know if it's only on facebook, but figured it would be worth sharing here
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152409165407282

 

[Celtic Cowman]

I find whenever I see a police car, my blood pressure jumps 30 points, I just know that if they feel like being arseholes, they can find *something* that's not right...

You get a recent Impaired Charge? Little lady charge you with assault? Lots of cop hate from you lately?
Or just jumping on the bandwagon like Bez?

 

[Nesikep]

Celtic.. Never had an impaired, I'm actually quite good friends with my ex's still.. They just always find something to be dicks about.

And that last link wasn't cop hate, it was in their defense.