Lutalyse

[tom4018]

3way, according to you there must be allot of people pulling calves from heifers, because breed average for CED is 2. :lol2: http://www.angus.org/nce/averages.aspx

Doc made a post a year or two ago about all the people selecting for low birth weight and how it was likely to hurt them in the growth department down the road, you might try and dig that post up.

As far as your comment about the AAA saying a 3 was safe for heifers just being propaganda, you would have to say the EPD's are just propaganda themselves, because it was all calculated by the same people.

I don't think 2 is the average. 2 would put a bull in the bottom 20% of the breed.
http://www.angus.org/nce/percentbreakdown.aspx?dtb=b

 

[3waycross]

Thank you Tom :tiphat: :tiphat: :tiphat: :tiphat:

 

[angus9259]

The only explanation as why he has no EPD's is that it was a commercial herd that used him ,therefor no need to submit data.

Serious question: does the AAA not issue EPDs on virgin bulls?

Of course they do. Then they update them every year. I received an update on the bull I posted here last week even though there has never been a calf registered out of him with the Angus Assn. I have registered several Balancers out of him but no Angus.

Not any more they don't (on virgin animals). They changed that practice about a year ago. They no longer issue "interim" epds on bulls or heifers.

 

[angus9259]

What would have caused the dam to have only received interim EPDs?

A dam will only have interims if they don't have any calves entered into the AHIR program. Their calves don't have to be registered, but have to be recorded. AND even if their calves HAVE been registered, if they HAVEN'T been entered in AHIR, then no data.

 

[MF135]

So when going to a (virgin) Angus bull sale, there are now no EPDs to evaluate?

 

[KNERSIE]

Excuse my ignorance but what does TMW mean?

too much white

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Was that in regards to the Hereford bull with the white topline? He was a fine animal.

 

[MF135]

What would have caused the dam to have only received interim EPDs?

She was probably not part of a contemporary group herself. The AAA will not give out EPD's like some organizations on a hunch, the data has to be submitted on the calves, and they have to be in a contemporary group for comparison.

You're back to square one and still don't know what you have. Turn him in with the heifers and you'll know next year.

hmmm.. so w/o modern EPDs, cattlemen are blind to selection? I don't think so... The Angus had an act BW of 73lbs, his sire had a negative BW epd with over .9 accuracy as well as his grandsire. He was linebred N Bar 5522. These are low birthweight genetics. That being said I didn't just go by epds. When we went to buy the Angus, he was in the pasture with 30+ first calf heifers with calves at side that he sired. They were all small/moderate framed calves with low 70lb bws. It wasn't that his EPDs were acceptable, it was the he was PROVEN.

Was that in regards to the Hereford bull with the white topline? He was a fine animal.

No it wasn't. Here are the bulls that started that convo:

Two bulls I bred that I used as clean up bulls last season, they are paternal halfsibs.

and here was my response:

Maybe you can show us what the breed standard are according to your history books? I know very well what the standards was in the UK, the USA and elsewhere, but I'm always open to be convinced with enough proof.

The hereford breed as a whole has got bigger problems to worry about in North America than a little extra white in the opinion of some.

Journal of Genetics, Vol. 9:

This diagram shows the various grades of pigmentation in Hereford cattle, grade "O" showing the standard or desired amount. The black portions are, of course, intended to represent a deep, rich red. The "typical Hereford" is described as "a deep red beast, with white face and underparts, white feet, white at the end of the tail, and with a white patch along the top of the neck. Coat color, which should be a rich purple red, not a yellow-brown; a clean, clear nose, without spots or markings; and the horns, which should be free from pigment at the tips." The salient points relate to the quality and distribution of pigment in the coat. As regards quality, the desired shade is an intense red (never black) distributed throughout the coat except where white is found.

 

[VanC]

Excuse my ignorance but what does TMW mean?

too much white

Thank you.

 

[angus9259]

So when going to a (virgin) Angus bull sale, there are now no EPDs to evaluate?

Good question. I actually haven't bought a virgin bull in a while. I've sold some w/o epds - I give the Dams and Sires - maybe that's how they'll do it? A lot of sales may have scan data, igenity data, etc . . .

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Knersie has some kick A$$ cattle doesn't he?

 

[angus9259]

So when going to a (virgin) Angus bull sale, there are now no EPDs to evaluate?

I just looked at a bull sale book on line. Looks like they're using scan data and AHIR data to compile their initial EPDs. But - some of that data wouldn't be available yet and is listed as N/A on their table.

 

[RD-Sam]

Oh brother.........too many angus experts. :roll:

 

[angus9259]

The Angus had an act BW of 73lbs, his sire had a negative BW epd with over .9 accuracy as well as his grandsire. He was linebred N Bar 5522. These are low birthweight genetics. That being said I didn't just go by epds. When we went to buy the Angus, he was in the pasture with 30+ first calf heifers with calves at side that he sired. They were all small/moderate framed calves with low 70lb bws. It wasn't that his EPDs were acceptable, it was the he was PROVEN.


Good way to buy a bull. I had a lead on son with a low CED - Lead On's not a calving ease bull and his dam wasn't a calving ease dam so the combined "interim" EPD was low CED. Sold him to a fella to breed some cows - some of the lowest birthweight calves on the ground. I had a fella calling me looking for a heifer bull - I sent him to this other guys place to look at his calves. He ended up buying the lead on son from my first customer and using him on heifers for two years. He said they were some of the lowest birthweight calves he's seen. 3 years in a row. He'd have a good CED and BW EPD now if all those calves were in the AHIR - but none were registered herds.

 

[tom4018]

The Angus had an act BW of 73lbs, his sire had a negative BW epd with over .9 accuracy as well as his grandsire. He was linebred N Bar 5522. These are low birthweight genetics. That being said I didn't just go by epds. When we went to buy the Angus, he was in the pasture with 30+ first calf heifers with calves at side that he sired. They were all small/moderate framed calves with low 70lb bws. It wasn't that his EPDs were acceptable, it was the he was PROVEN.


Good way to buy a bull. I had a lead on son with a low CED - Lead On's not a calving ease bull and his dam wasn't a calving ease dam so the combined "interim" EPD was low CED. Sold him to a fella to breed some cows - some of the lowest birthweight calves on the ground. I had a fella calling me looking for a heifer bull - I sent him to this other guys place to look at his calves. He ended up buying the lead on son from my first customer and using him on heifers for two years. He said they were some of the lowest birthweight calves he's seen. 3 years in a row. He'd have a good CED and BW EPD now if all those calves were in the AHIR - but none were registered herds.

I have seen bulls witha high BW and low CE number never have a calving problem. Personally owned one that would have small calves on our Angus cows but big calves on the cross cows. Numbers are only as accurate as what the breeders report in my opinion.

 

[angus9259]

Funny thing is . . . . this thread started and died in May . . . . it only got brought back up because I did a search for Lut to see about these cows I was buying and what I'd have to do to abort so I asked Dun a question. In May I think it had 3 posts? Now look! 4 pages of heated, blustery back and forth about who knows what about what! Plenty of posturing and dander raising . . . . all's right in the world.