Lost one this Morning

[Travlr]

I gave you my website (www.judyhoy.com) up at the beginning of this thread with lots of photo documents that are in the PDFs to Download as well as our studies and the SD study and data collected over several years by several independent (non-government) biologists. The studies, photos and collected data are not usually considered personal anecdotes, but whatever suits you to call it, I can't stop you. Here is some long term data on wild ruminants and a very small sample of cattle and bison.

At this point you are beating a dead horse.

Let it go...

 

[Ky hills]

At this point you are beating a dead horse.

Let it go...

And a dead horse with an underbite to boot.

 

[Hippie Rancher]

Recent studies

no link and no real point. you clearly have it out for glyphosate, as do many other people. most of them are just nut jobs. I await more work before I draw any conclusions. of course I didn't even ask about this particular assertion so not sure why you posted it.

 

[Hippie Rancher]

I gave you my website (www.judyhoy.com) up at the beginning of this thread with lots of photo documents that are in the PDFs to Download as well as our studies and the SD study and data collected over several years by several independent (non-government) biologists. The studies, photos and collected data are not usually considered personal anecdotes, but whatever suits you to call it, I can't stop you. Here is some long term data on wild ruminants and a very small sample of cattle and bison.

you know, I have looked at most all you have posted. some is interesting and has some possibilities for more work. the overall picture I am getting is too much "conclusion" without enough experimentation and verification. WAY too much reliance on anecdotal examples. methodology could be improved. you seem to be on track to possibly show a correlation (remember that is NOT causation) with increases in observed anomalies and certain pesticide usage. much more work and verification is needed. I am curious what if any peer reviewers have written.

have you taken a look at rates of facial deformaties PRIOR to you noticing them? claims of increases need some clear baseline data.

you have shown no evidence to back up claims of cure via homeopathic agents. sorry.

for any that feel I have been vitriolic with this poster, I invite you to please quote examples.

 

[J Hoy]

At this point you are beating a dead horse.

Let it go...

I guess you are right and the pesticides are likely what killed it - LOL. I can tell that no one here wants to help save anything, but someone did ask for recent DATA. I didn't have anything to do with collecting the data I posted above. Also, I had nothing against glyphosate until we found that the increase in glyphosate completely correlated with the increase in birth defects and health issues in children. So much for hoping that you all would want to save lives, especially those of newborn children and your own livestock. Apparently none of you have children or grandchildren that you care much about.

 

[Hippie Rancher]

I was told by three veterinarians that I had consulted ... since 3 vets said the fawn would have the underbite for life, I wasn't checking her bite to see if it had changed and even failed to notice that she looked different.

did these three vets actually see and examine the animal? anybody measure anything? how/what was the methodology? you said you didn't even notice the growth. probably it was not that deformed to begin with and just grew normally. the fact that you are activly looking for examples of these malformations and not data on all deaths shows one problem with your methodology. do you keep track of the "normal" examples? what degree of overbite/underbite affects viability? how do you know this isn't just normal variation?

 

[Hippie Rancher]

So much for hoping that you all would want to save lives, especially those of newborn children and your own livestock. Apparently none of you have children or grandchildren that you care much about.

appeal to emotion is not good science, or even good debate

 

[wbvs58]

So what is your answer to why so many untreated foals grew to be an adult with an underbite?

I just don't think that those photos are convincing of an underbite due to the initial photo not having erupted upper incissors.
I think Chaded is correct. You would have much more credibility if you didn't go calling every new born calf as having an under/over bite when you haven't examined them and in fact the owners have not seen a problem.

Ken

 

[J Hoy]

you know, I have looked at most all you have posted. some is interesting and has some possibilities for more work. the overall picture I am getting is too much "conclusion" without enough experimentation and verification. WAY too much reliance on anecdotal examples. methodology could be improved. you seem to be on track to possibly show a correlation (remember that is NOT causation) with increases in observed anomalies and certain pesticide usage. much more work and verification is needed. I am curious what if any peer reviewers have written.

have you taken a look at rates of facial deformaties PRIOR to you noticing them? claims of increases need some clear baseline data.

you have shown no evidence to back up claims of cure via homeopathic agents. sorry.

for any that feel I have been vitriolic with this poster, I invite you to please quote examples.

I have taken a look at the prevalence of underdeveloped facial bones. A study of 36,000 hunter killed white-tailed deer in Michigan by Ryel in 1963 found NO deer with an underbite and only a few with overbite, which is what the researchers were looking for. A study by Bart O'Gara of 100 white-tailed deer in our county in 1992 found no birth defects of any kind on adults or fetuses and that was one of the primary things that the researcher was looking for. Just three years later in spring of 1995, grazing animals, including white-tailed deer began being born with an underbite and the prevalence went up each year for several years. Underbite began declining in prevalence in wild grazing animals in 2014 but I am not sure why. Ectopic testes had never been reported in the studies on wild grazing animals in Montana or in the U.S. The other male reproductive malformation that began being observed on grazing animals in 1995 and in the years after was the testicles and bursa being misaligned 90 degrees with the left testicle and bursa directly forward of the right testicle and bursa because internal reproductive organs were misplaced forward (almost always on the left side). That birth defect had not been reported in the scientific literature prior to our reporting it in our first study. Is this what you are asking?

Regarding use of Calc. Phos. to help bone problems, I was kind of busy with caring for over 200 wild critters a year, taking care of the garden and canning and freezing, measuring, documenting, photographing and necropsying white-tailed deer for our studies, cooking meals and a few other things. I had no way to do a study on the Calc. Phos. or homeopathic cell salts or any time either. I was only getting about 5 hours of sleep a night, feeding mammal babies every three hours day and night. I thought I would mention it since it helped children (according to their parents) and other little critters. No one told you that you had to believe it works or use it. I just mentioned it in case someone might want to try it. The ranchers on Cattletoday are always telling people about medicines or electrolytes or other that they use and not a single one ever posted a study, before and after photos or any other evidence that their remedy works. No one even asked them to so I figured you were open to trying new things. No skin off my nose if you want to ignore every word, photo, study or other that I posted.

I gave you my website (www.judyhoy.com) up at the beginning of this thread with lots of photo documents that are in the PDFs to Download as well as our studies and the SD study and data collected over several years by several independent (non-government) biologists. The studies, photos and collected data are not usually considered personal anecdotes, but whatever suits you to call it, I can't stop you. Here is some long term data on wild ruminants and a very small sample of cattle and bison.

Dear Hippy Rancher, I did not have money to get X-rays on all the wild animals that had broken bones. I barely had enough money to buy needed baby bird food and other food for the critters. Also, I was not doing studies on that issue. I just used the Calc. Phos. and the bones healed much faster, saving me a huge amount of time, getting the critters back into the wild faster and letting me have more sleep.

 

[J Hoy]

appeal to emotion is not good science, or even good debate

Well providing data and studies and before and after photos seemed to have no effect, so I thought I should try something different since the horse was dead and had an underbite and no scrotum - LOL.

 

[Hippie Rancher]

I have taken a look at the prevalence of underdeveloped facial bones. A study of 36,000 hunter killed white-tailed deer in Michigan by Ryel in 1963 found NO deer with an underbite and only a few with overbite, which is what the researchers were looking for. A study by Bart O'Gara of 100 white-tailed deer in our county in 1992 found no birth defects of any kind on adults or fetuses and that was one of the primary things that the researcher was looking for. Just three years later in spring of 1995, grazing animals, including white-tailed deer began being born with an underbite and the prevalence went up each year for several years. Underbite began declining in prevalence in wild grazing animals in 2014 but I am not sure why. Ectopic testes had never been reported in the studies on wild grazing animals in Montana or in the U.S. The other male reproductive malformation that began being observed on grazing animals in 1995 and in the years after was the testicles and bursa being misaligned 90 degrees with the left testicle and bursa directly forward of the right testicle and bursa because internal reproductive organs were misplaced forward (almost always on the left side). That birth defect had not been reported in the scientific literature prior to our reporting it in our first study. Is this what you are asking?

Regarding use of Calc. Phos. to help bone problems, I was kind of busy with caring for over 200 wild critters a year, taking care of the garden and canning and freezing, measuring, documenting, photographing and necropsying white-tailed deer for our studies, cooking meals and a few other things. I had no way to do a study on the Calc. Phos. or homeopathic cell salts or any time either. I was only getting about 5 hours of sleep a night, feeding mammal babies every three hours day and night. I thought I would mention it since it helped children (according to their parents) and other little critters. No one told you that you had to believe it works or use it. I just mentioned it in case someone might want to try it. The ranchers on Cattletoday are always telling people about medicines or electrolytes or other that they use and not a single one ever posted a study, before and after photos or any other evidence that their remedy works. No one even asked them to so I figured you were open to trying new things. No skin off my nose if you want to ignore every word, photo, study or other that I posted.

Dear Hippy Rancher, I did not have money to get X-rays on all the wild animals that had broken bones. I barely had enough money to buy needed baby bird food and other food for the critters. Also, I was not doing studies on that issue. I just used the Calc. Phos. and the bones healed much faster, saving me a huge amount of time and getting the critters back into the wild faster.

while I certainly understand the amount of work involved in caring for large numbers of animals and/or people, and as well lack of funding for research...there are a couple things that need addressing about this. either find the resources or WAIT until you have the required evidence before making claims. it is one thing to advise people with what may have seemed to work for one, personally. but it is another to couch it as some kind of scientifically established fact. and when one does advance their personal experiences on public forums they should not be surprised nor offended when others comment or even refute their position. that is the nature of internet dialog - indeed it applies to most interactions, whether friendly chit chat or academic papers.

now either you are trying to do science or you are evangelizing a personal position. I prefer to work on the science side of things and that is how my questions and arguments are usually formed. science is a continuous process that in its ideal form is capable of accepting new information and incorporating it into established thought. it works by experimentation, repetition, verification. it evolves. who else has seen or commented on your papers? any veterinary academics? any non-affiliated biologists? any other review of your work been published? what other journals recieved submissions? what were reasons given for rejections? what have other researchers said about your work? this is how you improve your findings, or even gather more information. if you can't take questions or criticism you aren't doing science. a published paper isn't the end of the work. it is barely the beginning.

 

[J Hoy]

I just don't think that those photos are convincing of an underbite due to the initial photo not having erupted upper incissors.
I think Chaded is correct. You would have much more credibility if you didn't go calling every new born calf as having an under/over bite when you haven't examined them and in fact the owners have not seen a problem.

Ken

Well in looking at how calcium phosphate can be used I don't see how it could hurt... so I'll pass the information on to the kid's parents and they can make up their own mind.

Sadly, we live in an age of absolute, unquestioning belief in some very aberrant ideas... and yet instant skepticism for little reason... This age of easy information has no filters and absolute idiots with appeal are competing with true knowledge seen as politically incorrect and thus the average person (that never sees themselves as average) gets blown with the wind.

You are getting a hard time here and I'm not sure why. The information could be valuable, but only if someone has use for it and can test it. Otherwise I really don't get the vitriol...

Travlr, you have been very nice and I sincerely thank you. I have been called a liar about the birth defects ever since my husband, a game warden for Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks reported the first male white-tailed deer with ectopic testicles to his superiors in spring of 1996 after finding 8 yearlings (born in 1995) in a row with ectopic testicles. All of the deer older than a year old were perfectly normal. His superiors asked him to furnish intact accident-killed carcasses to the Wildlife Lab for the biologists there to examine. My husband gave 36 carcasses to the local MDFWP biologist, who took them to the lab. The lab issued a report on 28 of the deer and 11 fetuses from does too damaged to take intact to the lab. The report said that none of the deer had a birth defect, not even the 6 six month old fawns that had no scrotum at all and ectopic testicles or the fetuses with contracted tendons and/or underbite that was verified by a veterinarian and a famous wildlife biologist in writing (sent to the lab). The report said that birth defects were reported by inexperienced observers and untrained personnel and they were incorrect in their reports. Those people they referred to were my husband a graduate of the University of Montana who is and was a biologist with years of experience and the MDFWP biologist who also had many years under his belt as a wildlife biologist for MDFWP. Then because my husband was their best game warden and maybe one of the best ever, they blamed me and told everyone that I reported the birth defects and that I was wrong. The then governor of Montana even sent a letter to my parents stating that I was wrong when my mom wrote him a letter complaining about her son and his family having issues with pesticides used here and she mentioned the birth defects on the deer. She and I had different last names so he did not know that he was telling my own parents how wrong I was. I highly suspect he told the MDFWP laboratory personnel to cover up the birth defects in the first place, since he was so adamant there were none. Anyway, I am totally used to being laughed at, yelled at, called every name in the book, etc. I keep trying to save the newborns because without viable young, everything will go extinct and I love the baby wildlife. Little kids not so much - never had one - didn't want one, but I care about them.

By the way, Ken, I didn't say the calves had an underbite because I can't examine them, obviously you misunderstood what I said. I ASKED the owners if they checked for an underbite. If the owners didn't find an underbite that is great and obviously that birth defect has nothing to do with why the calf was dead or having health problems, etc. Here in Montana, no rancher is going to admit that his or her cattle, bison, sheep, goats, horses or other livestock have a birth defect, if they can help it.

 

[J Hoy]

I have taken a look at the prevalence of underdeveloped facial bones. A study of 36,000 hunter killed white-tailed deer in Michigan by Ryel in 1963 found NO deer with an underbite and only a few with overbite, which is what the researchers were looking for. A study by Bart O'Gara of 100 white-tailed deer in our county in 1992 found no birth defects of any kind on adults or fetuses and that was one of the primary things that the researcher was looking for. Just three years later in spring of 1995, grazing animals, including white-tailed deer began being born with an underbite and the prevalence went up each year for several years. Underbite began declining in prevalence in wild grazing animals in 2014 but I am not sure why. Ectopic testes had never been reported in the studies on wild grazing animals in Montana or in the U.S. The other male reproductive malformation that began being observed on grazing animals in 1995 and in the years after was the testicles and bursa being misaligned 90 degrees with the left testicle and bursa directly forward of the right testicle and bursa because internal reproductive organs were misplaced forward (almost always on the left side). That birth defect had not been reported in the scientific literature prior to our reporting it in our first study. Is this what you are asking?

Regarding use of Calc. Phos. to help bone problems, I was kind of busy with caring for over 200 wild critters a year, taking care of the garden and canning and freezing, measuring, documenting, photographing and necropsying white-tailed deer for our studies, cooking meals and a few other things. I had no way to do a study on the Calc. Phos. or homeopathic cell salts or any time either. I was only getting about 5 hours of sleep a night, feeding mammal babies every three hours day and night. I thought I would mention it since it helped children (according to their parents) and other little critters. No one told you that you had to believe it works or use it. I just mentioned it in case someone might want to try it. The ranchers on Cattletoday are always telling people about medicines or electrolytes or other that they use and not a single one ever posted a study, before and after photos or any other evidence that their remedy works. No one even asked them to so I figured you were open to trying new things. No skin off my nose if you want to ignore every word, photo, study or other that I posted.

Dear Hippy Rancher, I did not have money to get X-rays on all the wild animals that had broken bones. I barely had enough money to buy needed baby bird food and other food for the critters. Also, I was not doing studies on that issue. I just used the Calc. Phos. and the bones healed much faster, saving me a huge amount of time, getting the critters back into the wild faster and letting me have more sleep.

Dear Hippy Rancher, I did not consider your questions and comments to be offensive. You just asked very good questions. Thank you by the way. Also, I don't mind being kidded. Sorry I didn't have time and money to do all the research on the cell salts that everyone seems to want. It is too late now. I am 82 and when all the restrictions were taken off the use of all pesticides and new ones were approved in 2019, my lungs became inflamed and then began to get hard, so now I have full blown pulmonary fibrosis and being tied to an oxygen compressor slows me down a lot. Someone else will have to do the studies that everyone wants done on the cell salts. Good luck with all you do.

 

[Travlr]

I guess you are right and the pesticides are likely what killed it - LOL. I can tell that no one here wants to help save anything, but someone did ask for recent DATA. I didn't have anything to do with collecting the data I posted above. Also, I had nothing against glyphosate until we found that the increase in glyphosate completely correlated with the increase in birth defects and health issues in children. So much for hoping that you all would want to save lives, especially those of newborn children and your own livestock. Apparently none of you have children or grandchildren that you care much about.

Dead horse...

 

[Travlr]

I have taken a look at the prevalence of underdeveloped facial bones. A study of 36,000 hunter killed white-tailed deer in Michigan by Ryel in 1963 found NO deer with an underbite and only a few with overbite, which is what the researchers were looking for. A study by Bart O'Gara of 100 white-tailed deer in our county in 1992 found no birth defects of any kind on adults or fetuses and that was one of the primary things that the researcher was looking for. Just three years later in spring of 1995, grazing animals, including white-tailed deer began being born with an underbite and the prevalence went up each year for several years. Underbite began declining in prevalence in wild grazing animals in 2014 but I am not sure why. Ectopic testes had never been reported in the studies on wild grazing animals in Montana or in the U.S. The other male reproductive malformation that began being observed on grazing animals in 1995 and in the years after was the testicles and bursa being misaligned 90 degrees with the left testicle and bursa directly forward of the right testicle and bursa because internal reproductive organs were misplaced forward (almost always on the left side). That birth defect had not been reported in the scientific literature prior to our reporting it in our first study. Is this what you are asking?

Regarding use of Calc. Phos. to help bone problems, I was kind of busy with caring for over 200 wild critters a year, taking care of the garden and canning and freezing, measuring, documenting, photographing and necropsying white-tailed deer for our studies, cooking meals and a few other things. I had no way to do a study on the Calc. Phos. or homeopathic cell salts or any time either. I was only getting about 5 hours of sleep a night, feeding mammal babies every three hours day and night. I thought I would mention it since it helped children (according to their parents) and other little critters. No one told you that you had to believe it works or use it. I just mentioned it in case someone might want to try it. The ranchers on Cattletoday are always telling people about medicines or electrolytes or other that they use and not a single one ever posted a study, before and after photos or any other evidence that their remedy works. No one even asked them to so I figured you were open to trying new things. No skin off my nose if you want to ignore every word, photo, study or other that I posted.

Dear Hippy Rancher, I did not have money to get X-rays on all the wild animals that had broken bones. I barely had enough money to buy needed baby bird food and other food for the critters. Also, I was not doing studies on that issue. I just used the Calc. Phos. and the bones healed much faster, saving me a huge amount of time, getting the critters back into the wild faster and letting me have more sleep.

Dead horse...

 

[Travlr]

Well providing data and studies and before and after photos seemed to have no effect, so I thought I should try something different since the horse was dead and had an underbite and no scrotum - LOL.

Dead horse...

 

[Travlr]

By the way, Ken, I didn't say the calves had an underbite because I can't examine them, obviously you misunderstood what I said. I ASKED the owners if they checked for an underbite. If the owners didn't find an underbite that is great and obviously that birth defect has nothing to do with why the calf was dead or having health problems, etc. Here in Montana, no rancher is going to admit that his or her cattle, bison, sheep, goats, horses or other livestock have a birth defect, if they can help it.

Dead Horse...

 

[Travlr]

Dear Hippy Rancher, I did not consider your questions and comments to be offensive. You just asked very good questions. Thank you by the way. Also, I don't mind being kidded. Sorry I didn't have time and money to do all the research on the cell salts that everyone seems to want. It is too late now. I am 82 and when all the restrictions were taken off the use of all pesticides and new ones were approved in 2019, my lungs became inflamed and then began to get hard, so now I have full blown pulmonary fibrosis and being tied to an oxygen compressor slows me down a lot. Someone else will have to do the studies that everyone wants done on the cell salts. Good luck with all you do.

Dead horse...

And now I get why people are tired of the whole thing.

 

[J Hoy]

Dead horse...

And now I get why people are tired of the whole thing.

Travlr, I was just trying to be polite and answer Hippy Rancher's questions. If you or anyone else don't want to see what is said, no one is forcing you to are they?

 

[J Hoy]

while I certainly understand the amount of work involved in caring for large numbers of animals and/or people, and as well lack of funding for research...there are a couple things that need addressing about this. either find the resources or WAIT until you have the required evidence before making claims. it is one thing to advise people with what may have seemed to work for one, personally. but it is another to couch it as some kind of scientifically established fact. and when one does advance their personal experiences on public forums they should not be surprised nor offended when others comment or even refute their position. that is the nature of internet dialog - indeed it applies to most interactions, whether friendly chit chat or academic papers.

now either you are trying to do science or you are evangelizing a personal position. I prefer to work on the science side of things and that is how my questions and arguments are usually formed. science is a continuous process that in its ideal form is capable of accepting new information and incorporating it into established thought. it works by experimentation, repetition, verification. it evolves. who else has seen or commented on your papers? any veterinary academics? any non-affiliated biologists? any other review of your work been published? what other journals recieved submissions? what were reasons given for rejections? what have other researchers said about your work? this is how you improve your findings, or even gather more information. if you can't take questions or criticism you aren't doing science. a published paper isn't the end of the work. it is barely the beginning.

Hippy Rancher, regarding this statement "it is one thing to advise people with what may have seemed to work for one, personally but it is another to couch it as some kind of scientifically established fact," The Calc. Phos. was used by lots of people on themselves, on their children with underdeveloped bones and on their livestock, horse foals, goats, cattle, llama and chickens, geese and ducks. All who reported back to me reported success on correcting whatever health issue for which they were using the Calc. Phos. A whole lot of placebo effects, I guess. Just how does a placebo effect work on a baby bird or a baby deer, goat or calf? I have always wondered that!

And regarding your question about our peer reviewed published studies. Many researchers have referenced them in their papers. Veterinary academics and non-affiliated biologists have referenced our published studies and the South Dakota study published in Nature was based on our first two published studies. Our data on the sudden appearance of previously unknown birth defects and the prevalence at the time of presentation were presented by scientists to entire conventions of doctors, veterinarians, biologists, etc.

Regarding the four published studies, we submitted them to the journal that published them and they had them peer reviewed and then published them. None of the four published studies were rejected. Finally, regarding your statement, "and when one does advance their personal experiences on public forums they should not be surprised nor offended when others comment or even refute their position." I have been neither surprised nor offended. The people on CattleToday have been much nicer than most people I have dealt with here in our neck of the woods. I have tried very hard to answer all of your questions. You are correct, I certainly get criticized a great deal as you have noticed - LOL. Thank you again for your questions and being nice.