Obviously I haven't made my point if people are still asking pertinent questions. Is this thread required reading or something?Dead horse...
And now I get why people are tired of the whole thing.
Lost one this Morning
- Thread starter sstterry
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My lung doctor said the pulmonary fibrosis was because of exposure to toxins in the air because I never smoked or used pesticides. I am very allergic to both cigarette smoke and pesticides, not that you care about that. Really sorry to be boring you to death again!Dead horse...
And now I get why people are tired of the whole thing.
sunnyblueskies
Well-known member
Granted, I have not read the whole post from the beginning, so I don't know who said what and so forth. Something struck me though in this post of yours here.
You contribute this underbite theory in general to the use of Pesticides, did I understand that right?
If that is the case, you should know what event started the 'problem' between '92 and '95 and why it declined again in 2014.
Without knowing what exactly the environmental change was that contributed to the problem......... it remains just a hypothesis.
My hypothesis........ a number of animals was born with a genetic defect of an underbite (~1993), reproduced, spread the genetic defect. Animals born with this genetic defect didn't thrive as good in nature, 'only the strong survive'. Most of these weaker animals died off without reproducing (2014 on), lessening the occurrence of the defect.
P.S.: I have not read any of the studies, never looked at the problem, haven't paid attention to it either. But that is what I would think happened.
Since a large number of species of mammal, including equines, ruminants, camelids, canines, felines and children and many species of bird began being born with underdeveloped facial bones (either upper facial bones or the lower jaw forward of the premolars in mammals) in spring of 1995, the hypothesis of my colleagues and myself is that there was a very serious environmental factor that began causing the epigenetic change in facial bone development. At one point in the last 27 years, the prevalence of underbite on the examined wild ruminants was over 50%, but in 2014, something about the environmental factors changed so the underbite prevalence in most mammals and birds went down. The primary incorrect point of your hypothesis is that the disrupted facial bone development (underbite or overbite) has been shown by studies to be epigenetic, not genetic. The genes of the affected animals were not changed, the triggers that turn on or off certain genes are disrupted. There is no possible way for so many species to suddenly have the same genetic effect at the same time. Studies done prior to 1995 showed that there was almost no overbite and no underbite at all in wild ruminant populations prior to 1995.
I was interrupted before I said that our hypothesis for an environmental factor was tested on white-tailed deer by researchers in South Dakota. They gave imidacloprid to pregnant female deer in their drinking water and the fawns with high amounts imidacloprid in their spleens were born with the birth defects reported by Montana wildlife biologists who observed them on white-tailed deer in spring of 1996. The fawns and does with the most imidacloprid in their spleen usually died. Each of our findings regarding the birth defects are a hypothesis. The only known "theory" I have encountered, unfortunately quite often, is the theory of gravity, since I am kind of clumsy - LOL.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
When are you going to learn? J Hoy lurks in the background waiting for a dead calf!!! She is obsessed.
J Hoy - give it up. We don't want you here. We have much more important things to discuss or take care of. DEAD HORSE.
J Hoy - give it up. We don't want you here. We have much more important things to discuss or take care of. DEAD HORSE.
Dear Hippy Rancher,
I thought I should give you the data, and numbers for how may total animals were examined to determine prevalence of underbite, overbite or normal bite that you asked for. The data for our study from 1996 through 2010 are on page 5 of the attached study and I put on the data collected by a biologist on hunter-killed wild grazing animals that tells how many animals were examined and prevalences.
I didn't find the healing time on birds and mammals, especially youngsters to be hardly variable at all, in fact they all were very similar in healing time.
Here is a really great placebo effect on me when I used the Calc. Phos. I accidentally dumped boiling hot water on the back of all of the fingers on my right hand when I was canning. It hurt like the dickens and even though I ran cold water over my hand immediately, all of my fingers turned bright red and still hurt. I put a Calc. Phos. tablet in a few drops of water and put the liquid on all the area that was red on the back of my fingers. Then I finished processing the tomato juice I was working on. By the time I was done with the canning, the burned area had stopped hurting at all and I could even wash the canning stuff in fairly warm water without my fingers hurting. I put the same Calc. Phos. liquid on my fingers right before going to bed, so it would be there all night without getting washed off. The next morning, I expected blistered skin on my fingers, like always happened before when I burned my hand, but my fingers were not even red any more and there was no blistering or even evidence that I had burned my fingers. I really like those placebo effects - LOL. That is why I keep trying the cell salts on various things. That is the only way to see what will happen. I have noticed that livestock owners try various things on their livestock and then share what works. I haven't seen any before and after x-rays posted, or even many before and after photos.
I do appreciate that you took time to read the study.
I guess that lots of people are observing the underbite or overbite on wild and domestic animals. Just type the name of a grazing animal, wild or domestic - underbite - images on Google for photos that are posted by all the people that observed and photographed an underbite (underdeveloped premaxillary bone or upper jaw bone on an animal). Or type the name of an animal species - overbite - images or just Dork Deer on Google for photos of animals with overbite (underdeveloped lower jaw bone forward of the premolars). It is quite obvious that people are seeing the jaw malformations all over the United States and the rest of North America. My veterinarian friends also see domestic animals with jaw malformations. One veterinarian in Mexico wrote a book, which he sent to me, about the high number of jaw malformations he was seeing on the cattle he worked with where he lives in Mexico. I hope this answers all of your questions. Thanks again for your interest.
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It seems kind of strange that you have this under your posts,
"We make a living by what we get,
we make a life by what we give."
I was trying to give my knowledge to help livestock owners save their newborns, by sharing my 50 years of learning what worked well for me that most people don't know about and what I have learned about the birth defects and adverse health issues on livestock that are caused by chemical exposure. I don't want any more dead or malformed horses or calves either. Like I said, you don't have to read what I say if you aren't interested, so why be so expletive deleted mean?
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
J Hoy - you jump on every post that has a sick or dead calf. This is the cattle business. We have sick and dead calves. Not anything we want. We try to avoid at all costs.
You have posted your opinion NUMEROUS times, we get the picture. If we have a malformed calf, we turn the information in to our breed association, along with DNA. They research and let us know their thoughts. We do not disregard any abnormal deformity in our cattle. This is our living.
You have posted your opinion NUMEROUS times, we get the picture. If we have a malformed calf, we turn the information in to our breed association, along with DNA. They research and let us know their thoughts. We do not disregard any abnormal deformity in our cattle. This is our living.
Just wondering, Jeanne, you say you turn in the information and specimens for birth defects on livestock to the breed association where you live. Here in Montana, I can't find any reporting by ranchers anywhere for birth defects. Also, if livestock owners report underbite or overbite, why did some posters say "Who looks for underbite?"
OP
OP
There shouldn't be too many toxins in the air in Montana. I was there fishing a few years ago and the paint on old junked 1940's cars that I saw in some fields was almost pristine. Here that paint would not last more than 2 years.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
J Hoy - The American Simmental Assn. has a reporting system for ALL defects. Any calf with Angus - Shorthorn - MaineAnjou - Chi - etc parentage, has to be DNA tested before they can be registered. If they are a carrier, there papers are marked as such. IO believe all breed associations offer Genetic Defect testing and reporting.
Yes - I stand by my quote:
"We make a living by what we get,
we make a life by what we give."
I try to give back to my fellow breeders all the time.
You have been trying to jam you "research" down our throats long enough. There has not been one incidence on here that someone has jumped on your "information" and had an "ah ha" moment.
If you want to enlighten someone - tell people in the cities. We, in agriculture, are already enlightened. Thank you for your previous life of research.
Yes - I stand by my quote:
"We make a living by what we get,
we make a life by what we give."
I try to give back to my fellow breeders all the time.
You have been trying to jam you "research" down our throats long enough. There has not been one incidence on here that someone has jumped on your "information" and had an "ah ha" moment.
If you want to enlighten someone - tell people in the cities. We, in agriculture, are already enlightened. Thank you for your previous life of research.
wbvs58
Well-known member
Give us an example of who said "who looks for underbite". We certainly don't see all the pain and suffering that you are claiming that is occurring in our herds.
Ken
Ky hills
Well-known member
When the issues of NH, AM, CA, DD, came about in Angus, MSUD, and several other conditions in Herefords, they were reported and it was dealt with by the associations. I'm sure that if underbites were even remotely common that it would be noticed and questioned by producers. I would think that an underbite would result in a poor doing calf or a short lived calf depending on severity of the deformity. Wouldn't take too many of those calves to get a producers attention.
I've only seen one ruminant in my lifetime with a noticeable underbite and that was in an old goat. It evidently didn't affect her much, she was otherwise healthy and in good condition.
I'm not saying that birth defects and medical conditions at any point in life are not possible from a variety of sources from genetics to toxins, and pharmaceutical drugs.
Livestock farmers/ranchers have to be and are very aware of any situation that affects their stock in a negative way, and certainly if a pattern of multiple similar scenarios occur.
I've only seen one ruminant in my lifetime with a noticeable underbite and that was in an old goat. It evidently didn't affect her much, she was otherwise healthy and in good condition.
I'm not saying that birth defects and medical conditions at any point in life are not possible from a variety of sources from genetics to toxins, and pharmaceutical drugs.
Livestock farmers/ranchers have to be and are very aware of any situation that affects their stock in a negative way, and certainly if a pattern of multiple similar scenarios occur.
MurraysMutts
Well-known member
Well, I did watch and actually bid on a lil bull bottle calf with a pretty severe underbite. Lil buck toothed fart was kind of cute. He brought wayyyy more than he was worth even if he had been a perfectly normal calf. I did have an "ah ha!" moment.
The family that bought him also bought Toodles, as well as several other small project calves from me. Ill have to see if I can find out if his buck toothed head ever got better....
I remember saying...
Who checks for an underbite anyway!
wbvs58
Well-known member
You don't count Murray, you take them all no matter what for the challenge.Well, I did watch and actually bid on a lil bull bottle calf with a pretty severe underbite. Lil buck toothed fart was kind of cute. He brought wayyyy more than he was worth even if he had been a perfectly normal calf. I did have an "ah ha!" moment.
The family that bought him also bought Toodles, as well as several other small project calves from me. Ill have to see if I can find out if his buck toothed head ever got better....
I remember saying...
Who checks for an underbite anyway!
Ken
Thank you, Murray. It would definitely be interesting to know if the calf's underbite got better without treatment.Well, I did watch and actually bid on a lil bull bottle calf with a pretty severe underbite. Lil buck toothed fart was kind of cute. He brought wayyyy more than he was worth even if he had been a perfectly normal calf. I did have an "ah ha!" moment.
The family that bought him also bought Toodles, as well as several other small project calves from me. Ill have to see if I can find out if his buck toothed head ever got better....
I remember saying...
Who checks for an underbite anyway!
I was told by one rancher here in our county that approximately 1/3 of their beef calves in 1999 had an underbite, but that is anecdotal. Regarding actual data, in summer of 2009, I examined 16 heads of butchered yearling steers from our county. Twelve had an underbite and 4 had a normal bite, so 75% had an underbite. One was the reserve champion steer at the county fair in 4-H that year, so his underbite did not affect his growth or confirmation, since 4-H steers are usually fed grain. When I was in 4-H around 65 years ago, animals with birth defects like underbite were not allowed to be shown. Times have changed, I guess.
More recent data from a friend who cleans skulls, including cattle skulls, reported that 4 or 31% of 13 cattle heads he received to clean in the last three years had an underbite and some had an overbite. Overbite doesn't seem to affect their ability to graze as much as an underbite, unless the overbite is really severe and they weren't.
Other anecdotal information came from quite a number of ranchers who claimed that the wolves chased their cattle that were up in the forests in the summer. They didn't loose any livestock or a single calf to wolves and there were no wolves known to be in those areas. The average weight collectively of the calves when they were sold in the fall was quite a bit less than in years prior to the wolves release, so of course it had to be the wolves that did it according to them.
My hypothesis (not theory) was that if their calves had underbite at 30% or over, it could have significantly affected the average weight gain. However, I had no way of testing that hypothesis, so it still remains an unproven hypothesis. However, the collection and checking of the heads of butchered beef from our county has shown that over a fairly long period, the prevalence of underbite on the beef calves born here in western Montana remained around 30% or slightly over and that is about what the only rancher who would admit the problem told me for her herd clear back in 1999. I told you all several times that if you want to see a whole lot of photos of beef and dairy calves with an underbite just type "domestic calves underbite images" on Google and look at them.
I think I might have posted this before, but will say it again. My neighbor would buy calves with Weak Calf Syndrome really cheap or sometimes the rancher just gave the calf to him. All of the WCS calves he got had a pretty significant underbite. I checked the bites myself. I also helped him get the calves up and doing well, except for one almost dead one - it died. I told how we did this on another thread, so won't repeat it. The statistics I looked up say that 3 of every 100 calves are still dying of WCS every year. In Montana alone, that would be over 25,000 calves a year. That is a big loss collectively, especially at the price of calves now. Just saying. I didn't do the math for the whole United States, but any of you can if you want to or just for your state.
Ky hills
Well-known member
Weak calf syndrome, from what I have read and seen, is probably more to do with lack of nutrition and condition of the cow than from an outside chemical or toxin source. Seems logical that if the cow is lacking adequate minerals and or enough food during gestation that the development of the calf is also affected.
Is there a standard for measuring underbites? Perhaps the AAA can help us out if they can come up with an EPD for underbites.
Is there a standard for measuring underbites? Perhaps the AAA can help us out if they can come up with an EPD for underbites.
seems a little harsh. plenty of posts here that are not exactly high science or of great importance. I give credit for efforts to gather data, even if the science is off and the conclusions not particularly credible.
