Lost one this Morning

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seems a little harsh. plenty of posts here that are not exactly high science or of great importance. I give credit for efforts to gather data, even if the science is off and the conclusions not particularly credible.
seems a little harsh. plenty of posts here that are not exactly high science or of great importance. I give credit for efforts to gather data, even if the science is off and the conclusions not particularly credible.
I am inclined to agree. I guess mostly I wonder how she is buying groceries and paying land tax with the monies earned from dissimulating
the information presented on these pages. The underbite problem could be verified and dealt with by selecting against it through
EPD ratings, I seriously doubt if it is an inherited trait and an EPD verification would tend to lend credibility to her research. i think
 
I am inclined to agree. I guess mostly I wonder how she is buying groceries and paying land tax with the monies earned from dissimulating
the information presented on these pages. The underbite problem could be verified and dealt with by selecting against it through
EPD ratings, I seriously doubt if it is an inherited trait and an EPD verification would tend to lend credibility to her research. i think
I think she is asserting it is teratogenic, not inherited.
 
I lost 2 cows. One in late April and the other in late May. But the one I lost in April my neighbor reports it is up in the hills with his cows. I think I know where the one I lost in May is. But it is pretty thick junipers and she is real sneaky. I would go search some there but there is also a bull in there with a serious attitude issue. Oh, both have healthy calves with no obvious over or under bite. I will get them both back when the fall gather occurs.
 
One was the reserve champion steer at the county fair in 4-H that year, so his underbite did not affect his growth or confirmation
And with that....... the story is done for me.
Since there is no actual proof of the hypothesis........ it ends up being just a observation. Without proof it simply remains a natural occurrence, without knowing the exact reason or cause of a change in bone growth......... it can't be addressed or attempted to be fixed.
So we all carry on, we will win some, we will loose some and the world will continue to evolve.
 
J Hoy - you jump on every post that has a sick or dead calf. This is the cattle business. We have sick and dead calves. Not anything we want. We try to avoid at all costs.
You have posted your opinion NUMEROUS times, we get the picture. If we have a malformed calf, we turn the information in to our breed association, along with DNA. They research and let us know their thoughts. We do not disregard any abnormal deformity in our cattle. This is our living.
I locked out J Hoy a long time ago. Never learned anything from her.
 
Makes me wonder if she had twins. Not uncommon for them to have them in different areas, so you may not have noticed the first one.
no second calf in here but she cleaned right away, week before wonder if she was cystic cause she like to ride and wasnt really bagging up
 
And with that....... the story is done for me.
Since there is no actual proof of the hypothesis........ it ends up being just a observation. Without proof it simply remains a natural occurrence, without knowing the exact reason or cause of a change in bone growth......... it can't be addressed or attempted to be fixed.
So we all carry on, we will win some, we will loose some and the world will continue to evolve.
The exact cause of a change in bone growth on a fetus is the disruption of calcium and other mineral uptake by the cells of the growing fetus, resulting in certain bones not growing to their genetically programmed length. If the affected bone cells are stimulated to uptake the needed minerals by the use of electrolytes, the bones grow to normal because they are genetically programmed to do that - DUH! Veterinarians say the bones will grow to normal if they are programmed genetically to be normal.

Do you have any scientific studies or any kind of data to prove what you stated, sunnyblueskies? I don't care if people don't read what I post. I was just trying to help those who care about the newborns save the babies. I don't like babies of any kind to be born with health issues and birth defects that cause them distress or pain.
 
I am inclined to agree. I guess mostly I wonder how she is buying groceries and paying land tax with the monies earned from dissimulating
the information presented on these pages. The underbite problem could be verified and dealt with by selecting against it through
EPD ratings, I seriously doubt if it is an inherited trait and an EPD verification would tend to lend credibility to her research. i think
Dear Lee, I never got one cent for collecting data, photographing birth defects, writing studies, or trying to get something done to save the young animals, including humans. I did everything on my own time. I was sincerely hoping others would want to save the young ones too, because without viable young, species go extinct eventually. We grew and processed most of our own food and saved our money. Are EPD ratings done on deer? That was our main study animal for our published studies.
 
I read this whole thread, all 8 pages of it. My thoughts are. We all do and say things that annoy people, we all have things we are passionate about, (I annoy people by being (to) enthusiastic about cow's, ect) glazed eye's anyone lol..
In my opinion Jhoy isn't hurting anyone, and I'm nowhere near 80 but if I was and couldn't get out and do things like I used to, I might just get on a forum and bug people. Maybe she's lonely, besides being concerned about children. Let's not be mean enough we make her leave. I say read or don't read what she posts. If it's going to make you angry, Us cattle people care about our cattle and we know it, . We have more important concerns to deal with, than to sit on here and jaw back and forth and get rought up for no reason, we know how much we care about our cattle, non cattle people don't get it .. I had a person the other day say You raise calves??? Why do you do that, I laughed and said so people who don't understand why we do what we do can eat lol .
Just my 2 cents.
 
Dear Lee, I never got one cent for collecting data, photographing birth defects, writing studies, or trying to get something done to save the young animals, including humans. I did everything on my own time. I was sincerely hoping others would want to save the young ones too, because without viable young, species go extinct eventually. We grew and processed most of our own food and saved our money. Are EPD ratings done on deer? That was our main study animal for our published studies.
May God richly bless your efforts of good will. LVR
 
I read this whole thread, all 8 pages of it. My thoughts are. We all do and say things that annoy people, we all have things we are passionate about, (I annoy people by being (to) enthusiastic about cow's, ect) glazed eye's anyone lol..
In my opinion Jhoy isn't hurting anyone, and I'm nowhere near 80 but if I was and couldn't get out and do things like I used to, I might just get on a forum and bug people. Maybe she's lonely, besides being concerned about children. Let's not be mean enough we make her leave. I say read or don't read what she posts. If it's going to make you angry, Us cattle people care about our cattle and we know it, . We have more important concerns to deal with, than to sit on here and jaw back and forth and get rought up for no reason, we know how much we care about our cattle, non cattle people don't get it .. I had a person the other day say You raise calves??? Why do you do that, I laughed and said so people who don't understand why we do what we do can eat lol .
Just my 2 cents.
I feel much the same way, Judy is no harm to anyone and has some strong views that we should not discount completely. I take the middle of the road view. I quite like having the old girl around. Only thing is I don't believe we have many for her to save from all the pain and suffering Judy describes.

Ken
 
I feel much the same way, Judy is no harm to anyone and has some strong views that we should not discount completely. I take the middle of the road view. I quite like having the old girl around. Only thing is I don't believe we have many for her to save from all the pain and suffering Judy describes.

Ken
I'm somewhere in the middle also.
 
Veterinarians say the bones will grow to normal if they are programmed genetically to be normal.

Do you have any scientific studies or any kind of data to prove what you stated, sunnyblueskies? I don't care if people don't read what I post. I was just trying to help those who care about the newborns save the babies. I don't like babies of any kind to be born with health issues and birth defects that cause them distress or pain.
Not going to get into an argument.
You just stated it yourself. ".....bones grow to normal IF they are genetically programmed to be normal."
If they are genetically, environmentally or any other way programmed NOT to grow normal......... it's already too late to change the markup for that fetus.
Nobody wants to see babies hurt.
I think the part where people start to argue with your point is that you argue your point as a scientific fact, yet by your own argument you state its a 'hypothesis', 'observation' and that it is not scientifically proven.
That's all ok, it's good to think about why things happen, but don't jump on every dead calf post and lecture about hypothesis. I think you should argue, together with your group of likeminded people, at a higher level. Not with us little fish in the sea, we will try to save that calf no matter what and loose sleep over why it died.


P.S.: So you observed a lot of wildlife, what do you know about diseases spread to cattle through deer living and pooping and peeing (polite words) in stored cattle feed.
 
I read this whole thread, all 8 pages of it. My thoughts are. We all do and say things that annoy people, we all have things we are passionate about, (I annoy people by being (to) enthusiastic about cow's, ect) glazed eye's anyone lol..
In my opinion Jhoy isn't hurting anyone, and I'm nowhere near 80 but if I was and couldn't get out and do things like I used to, I might just get on a forum and bug people. Maybe she's lonely, besides being concerned about children. Let's not be mean enough we make her leave. I say read or don't read what she posts. If it's going to make you angry, Us cattle people care about our cattle and we know it, . We have more important concerns to deal with, than to sit on here and jaw back and forth and get rought up for no reason, we know how much we care about our cattle, non cattle people don't get it .. I had a person the other day say You raise calves??? Why do you do that, I laughed and said so people who don't understand why we do what we do can eat lol .
Just my 2 cents.
Nope, not lonely. Just running out of time to save the wild and domestic young ones, so the young humans will have them around when/if they survive to grow up. Thank you, Hereford2.
I feel much the same way, Judy is no harm to anyone and has some strong views that we should not discount completely. I take the middle of the road view. I quite like having the old girl around. Only thing is I don't believe we have many for her to save from all the pain and suffering Judy describes.

Ken
Ken, the data on cattle states that 3 of 100 calves die of Weak Calf Syndrome (WCS) each year. Here in Montana that would be well over 20,000 calves. Since I have helped treat many WCS calves in the past, I know how much WCS makes them suffer. Also, with wild grazing animals - not fed hay in the winter - those with an underbite can't bite off enough food to survive and die a slow death that is painful to watch, so it is likely not that pleasant for the affected animal. I am very happy that your cattle are not being affected. Providing the proper minerals helps counter the effects of whatever is actually responsible for the disrupted bone growth, because one of the prime suspects is a patented mineral chelator. I commend you for doing a good job.
 
Not going to get into an argument.
You just stated it yourself. ".....bones grow to normal IF they are genetically programmed to be normal."
If they are genetically, environmentally or any other way programmed NOT to grow normal......... it's already too late to change the markup for that fetus.
Nobody wants to see babies hurt.
I think the part where people start to argue with your point is that you argue your point as a scientific fact, yet by your own argument you state its a 'hypothesis', 'observation' and that it is not scientifically proven.
That's all ok, it's good to think about why things happen, but don't jump on every dead calf post and lecture about hypothesis. I think you should argue, together with your group of likeminded people, at a higher level. Not with us little fish in the sea, we will try to save that calf no matter what and loose sleep over why it died.


P.S.: So you observed a lot of wildlife, what do you know about diseases spread to cattle through deer living and pooping and peeing (polite words) in stored cattle feed.
WCS is generally a calf born to an under nourished cow in BCS of 4 or less. Has nothing to do with chemicals. It is poor management.
And you know that how? When two pesticides, Endrin and 2,4,5-T were excessively used here in western Montana and in states upwind, there was an epidemic of WCS here in Montana. Those two pesticides were both banned in 1985 and between 1986 and 1995, WCS almost completely disappeared,? Was that just by coincidence? And was it just by coincidence that WCS syndrome began happening again in cattle herds in spring of 1995 and like I said, the stats say 3 of every calves are still born with WCS. I know quite a lot about WCS because I talked in person to the veterinarian who identified WCS and named it, as he lived in our county, where WCS was first found.
 
Not going to get into an argument.
You just stated it yourself. ".....bones grow to normal IF they are genetically programmed to be normal."
If they are genetically, environmentally or any other way programmed NOT to grow normal......... it's already too late to change the markup for that fetus.
Nobody wants to see babies hurt.
I think the part where people start to argue with your point is that you argue your point as a scientific fact, yet by your own argument you state its a 'hypothesis', 'observation' and that it is not scientifically proven.
That's all ok, it's good to think about why things happen, but don't jump on every dead calf post and lecture about hypothesis. I think you should argue, together with your group of likeminded people, at a higher level. Not with us little fish in the sea, we will try to save that calf no matter what and loose sleep over why it died.


P.S.: So you observed a lot of wildlife, what do you know about diseases spread to cattle through deer living and pooping and peeing (polite words) in stored cattle feed.
Nope, I said, "VETERINARIANS say bones grow to normal if they are genetically programmed to be normal." You just took what you wanted from my statement - that is not fair at all. From my measurements of over 1000 animals' bite, it did not appear that what they said was correct. How did so many different species of mammal and bird suddenly get damaged genes in the parents all at the same time? All of the research scientists I asked, said it was not possible genetically for so many animals to suddenly have the same birth defect, so the cause had to be environmental, not genetic. Some newborns of the following domestic animals were observed or reported to me to have been born with an underbite beginning in spring of 1995 and in every year since (overbite was not as prevalent but was observed on domestic goats): cattle, bison, sheep, goats, horses, mules, llama, dogs that were not genetically bred to have an underbite, cats and likely something I am forgetting.
 
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