While bulldogs were and are bred to have an underbite, wolves weren't. In 1998, two wolf pups were captured in our county in western Montana and their photo shown in the newspapers. The wolf pup on the left in the photo has a definite underbite and crooked lower incisors. Fortunately for wolves, underbite is not nearly as prevalent on canines (except canines bred to have an underbite) as it is on wild and domestic grazing animals. Just type on Google (underbite domestic calves images) and lots of photos will come up. Most people think that calves with an underbite are cute. Since they can't graze efficiently, they don't gain weight, so their owner looses money when such calves are sold. That is one reason I began trying to help save the calves by posting on Cattletoday.
Lost one this Morning
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HippyRancher, regarding how cell salts work. A study showed that distilled water without a cell salt tablet in it looked like distilled water always does. The distilled water with a cell salt tablet in it had crystalline structures that had to be looked at with an electron microscope to see them. The crystalline structures had a negative electrical charge, so when the crystalline structures spread throughout the blood stream of the body, they likely then go into the cells and the negative electrical charge would then help the cells uptake positively the positively charged minerals in the blood stream. That makes a cell salt an efficient and effective electrolyte. When the cell salts are made, they are shaken and diluted by 10 (6 times for Calc. Phos. 6X and 30 times for Calc. Phos. 30X. Shaking and diluting more times actually makes the tablet stronger so it works longer and better and that can actually be observed when the Calc. Phos. is given to an animal with a broken bone. If the animal is given Calc. Phos. 6X the bone takes 2/3s the normal healing time and if the animal is given Calc. Phos. 30X the bone take 1/2 the normal healing time. So for adult humans with broken bones who took a Calc. Phos. 30X tablet three times a day spread out from waking up to going to bed, their broken arm or leg took 3 weeks to heal. They were all checked by their doctors who had told them it would take 6 weeks for the bone to heal. That was quite visible evidence to the people with the broken bones and their doctors. For baby birds and baby wild mammals in my care with when I rehabbed wildlife, the broken bones took 5 or 6 days to heal instead of the 12 to 14 days that it takes when cell salt tablets are not given to them. That is quite visible evidence that the Calc. Phos. 30X tablets given to them several times each day actually had a positive effect. If I can actually "observe" something happen over and over, I begin to believe it.
I was inquiring about the cases you mentioned specifically:
as for the wacky homeopathy "explanations" I am sorry, they fail all scientific tests. shaking and diluting nothing does nothing. crystaline structure memory in water is not a thing. chemistry, physics, - reality - does not work that way. most of your claims are annecdotal and not verifiable or even tested in any kind of scientific manner. water can't cure birth defects. some of your photo examples are obviously just normal developement, some may have some other things going on but there is no way to prove any of it with out measurements and verifiable, repeatable testing. the most positive thing I can say about your "cure" is that at least it is doing no harm, but it also is not doing any good. it is in actual fact, doing nothing. because it is essentially nothing.
wbvs58
Well-known member
Travlr
Well-known member
I gotta say, until you started with the out-of-the-blue "cure" I was taking your information seriously enough to consider it. But now, not so much.
I mean... I've seen some s**t in my life that is hard to believe and it turned out to be true, and I've seen some stuff that was completely believable that turned out to be as fake as a three dollar bill. I've seen a guy survive for thirty years with cancer, using some odd non-pharmaceuticals. But your cure strains my apprehension.
wbvs58
Well-known member
Undershot lower jaws are quite common in canines. I have removed the deciduous canines from pups with an undershot jaw as they start to dig into the hard palate and further retard jaw growth. By removing them I have seen the lower jaw catch up and the pup ends with a normal bite so the growth after birth can compensate on its own if nothing is holding it back. From my memory bone remodelling does react to electrical charge, the body will try to correct bent bones, the charge on one side of a bent bone under load is different to the other side so the body will try to deposit bone on one side and resorb from the other.
Ken
And you know this HOW? You have absolutely no evidence on which to base your statements. I at least provided before and after photos. But you don't believe those are evidence. I thought photos were evidence. For your information, I splinted and cared for many birds and mammals with broken bones prior to giving the Calc. Phos. tablet to animals with broken bones. During the 28 years that I rehabbed animals PRIOR to using Calc. Phos., and watching more than 30 animals recover WITHOUT giving Calc. Phos., I could actually tell how long it took for the bone or bones to heal. It took from 14 to 20 days, depending on the age of the animal and what kind of animal it was. In 1998, I began giving the Calc. Phos. 6X to animals with broken bones and several years later, when I found the Calc. Phos. 30X, I used it. I had noticed a visibly shorter healing time with Calc. Phos. 6X of from 3 to several days, but with Calc. Phos. 30X, the healing time was pretty much right at half the time that it had taken similar breaks on mammals and birds to heal before I used Calc. Phos. So, young birds and mammals took 5 to 6 days for the bone/s to heal and older animals took 7 to 10 days. I already told you that humans with a broken arm bone or leg bone that took the Calc. Phos. 30X were completely healed in three weeks rather than the 6 weeks the doctors told them it would take. In one case, the doctor couldn't believe the lower leg bone of a lady was healed in three weeks, so he took an X-ray. It was totally healed. But, I guess an X-ray wouldn't be scientific evidence to you either. If any of you who might believe me and you break a bone and decide to try the Calc. Phos. 6X or 30X, let us know how long the bone takes to heal. Remember to take at least one tablet in the morning and one in the evening. If it is Calc. Phos. 6X you need to take one tablet about every four hours for best results.
I have your words as evidence. most of what you posted in this thread are your personal anecdotes. anecdotes are not data, as they say. photos are a good method of documenting individual events in individual points in time. they are parts of a whole. your personal anecdotes need more information and corroboration. observations are important, but conclusions need more evidence. experiments need duplication. heck even observations benefit from duplication. who else is noticing this? any veterinarians reporting this stuff? packers?
I read the paper you posted after this comment and tried to follow some of the notations. it is late and I am a little out of practice with reading these kinds of things (and especially statistics). one thing I may have missed or perhaps indeed it isn't there, was sample sizes for your various personal observations. (for example how many "normal" deer heads vs brachygnathic specimens?) I also noticed a fair amount of what seemed to be misleading language in terms of the focus on glyphosate and then the footnotes actually referring to other substances or phenomenon. unless it was a self-cite of your own work.
in general without a real deep dive I am somewhat skeptical of some of the correlation/causation conclusions you are pushing but the overall work seems OK on a late night first read.
that doesn't change anything I said about homeopathic treatments. that is just flat out whacky stuff that has no basis in science or reality. the only place for it is in treating humans as a placebo. no doubt it works well for many in that situation. heck I have even experienced it. LOL
and of course your claims for healing times are also just personal anecdotes. without something like dated before and after xrays, it is just the subjective observation/claim of one person about a naturally highly variable phenomenon.
wbvs58
Well-known member
I don't think those photos of the foal tell you much. The 1st photo the incissors haven't erupted. Once the upper incissors erupt they would naturally protrude further forward and produce a more normal bite.
Ken
Redgully
Well-known member
Ever read a book called healthy cattle naturally by Pat Coleby, she sounds just like you but her it's pretty much curing everything from johnes to a broken leg with mega doses of vitamin c. And poor old Percy will be turning in his grave at the thought of giving phosphate in any form as causes every health problem known to mankind including cancer. Google Percys powder and read up on him, fascinating story but yeah, just another theory with no scientific proof to back it up. You can actually still buy percys powder.
Travlr, sorry to hear that. However, I know how you feel. The first deer fawn with a very bad underbite that grew to have a normal bite in two weeks totally blew my mine. I was told by three veterinarians that I had consulted about that fawn that there was absolutely no way to "fix" an underbite on a grazing animal except to do an operation and saw a piece out of the lower jaw and then wire the jaw bone together so the jaw bone would heal and match the upper jaw. That was not a possible solution. Apparently fortunately, the fawn had symptoms of intolerance to milk. I had found while raising other newborns with milk intolerance or a sensitive digestive system, that putting the Calc. Phos. tablet in the milk after warming it greatly helped them digest the milk, so the newborn mammal, whatever species it was, could drink and digest the milk without having a reaction like obvious stomach pain or diarrhea. I had 9 fawns to feed several times a day, and since 3 vets said the fawn would have the underbite for life, I wasn't checking her bite to see if it had changed and even failed to notice that she looked different. Have you ever tried giving bottles to 9 fawns that all want to eat immediately? When a fawn was two weeks old, I began teaching it to eat three-way grain by holding the grain in my hand and putting a small amount in its mouth. So I was teaching the little fawn with underbite to eat the three-way at two weeks of age and when I was putting the grain into her mouth, I saw that she no longer had an underbite. I checked her bite several times, because I couldn't believe she had a normal bite, and then I checked it again just to make sure my eyes were working. Then, since she did obviously have a normal bite, I began trying to figure out how something that three veterinarians told me could never happen had happened. The only thing I could figure out was that the Calc. Phos. tablet I was putting into her milk each feeding had somehow stimulated the upper facial bone/s to grow, resulting in her having a normal bite. So, I began giving any fawn, goat kid, bird hatchling, or other newborn with an underbite the Calc. Phos. tablet in their milk or bird food. Then I gave the Calc. Phos. to a neighbor girl to use on her foals, who over three years had three filly foals born with underbite and to another neighbor to give to the beef calves he bought cheap to bottle raise because they had WCS (the WCS calves all had an underbite). The facial bones of all wild animals I received for care, my goat kids and a neighbor's goat kids born with an underbite or an overbite, the three filly foals and all of the other neighbor's beef calves (except the one he got for free that was almost dead - it died) grew to normal and all of the youngsters had a normal bite for the rest of their life. All of the deer fawns born with an underbite that were raised by their mother, all of the other foals that were born here in our area with an underbite, all of the untreated beef and dairy calves and goat kids born with an underbite, retained the underbite for the rest of their life. The underbite prevalence on 292 hunter-killed white-tailed deer in Montana checked by an independent biologist in the years from 2006 through 2021 was 27%, with 14% overbite and 59% normal. All of those hunter-killed deer were adult animals, so in the wild, the underbite or overbite they were born with did not just somehow grow to normal, because they still had the birth defect as an adult. Maybe you have some other explanation for how the animals that were given the Calc. Phos. as newborns (or hatchlings in the case of the birds) had their facial bones grow to normal and no others did. I could never come up with one, even after constantly being called wrong, a liar, stupid, just a woman (that one really made me mad) and pretty much every other name in the book. As I already posted, the children with underbite whose parents gave them the Calc. Phos. also had their facial bones grow to normal and then had a normal bite. That is about all I can say, except that mule deer, pronghorn antelope, moose, bighorn sheep, elk and mountain goats all have a fairly high prevalence of young born with an underbite and some young born with an overbite. Hunter-killed pronghorn antelope (188) checked between 2006 and 2021 had a prevalence of underbite of 66% and overbite at 11%, with only 28% normal. These were checked by a biologist who graduated from the University of Montana with a biology degree. Unfortunately, underbite and overbite only "magically" grow to normal when treated with Calc. Phos. which can't possibly work according to almost everyone except those who have seen it work.
Travlr
Well-known member
Well in looking at how calcium phosphate can be used I don't see how it could hurt... so I'll pass the information on to the kid's parents and they can make up their own mind.
Sadly, we live in an age of absolute, unquestioning belief in some very aberrant ideas... and yet instant skepticism for little reason... This age of easy information has no filters and absolute idiots with appeal are competing with true knowledge seen as politically incorrect and thus the average person (that never sees themselves as average) gets blown with the wind.
You are getting a hard time here and I'm not sure why. The information could be valuable, but only if someone has use for it and can test it. Otherwise I really don't get the vitriol...
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chaded
Well-known member
I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's because every time a calf is sick or even just born…..Hoy is asking if we checked for an under bite. I mean, when I posted a picture of a buck I shot last season I was asked if I checked his testicles and if it had an underbite.
Travlr
Well-known member
So some amount of overkill due to an interest you don't have...
I'd bet that if you'd gone to the beach and she asked you if you saw any babes in bikinis and if any were showing any camel toe you'd have been interested...
LOL
So what is your answer to why so many untreated foals grew to be an adult with an underbite?
Hi Chadid and Travlr, LOL at this! Independent biologists checked male white-tailed deer scrotums when they collected deer carcasses to put in front of cameras to photograph scavengers, especially eagles. Over 30% of those randomly accident killed male deer had ectopic testicles (horizontal between the skin and the body wall so the sperm is heat damaged). Ectopic testicles are said by medical books and veterinarians to be a very serious birth defect. Just look at photos of male bison taken in Yellowstone National Park or the National Bison Range or in other herds and you will see quite a few with short bumps where the testicles are ectopic. Bison ranchers' have male bison with ectopic testicles born each year, but they won't admit their animals have a birth defect. Neither will the cattle and bison ranchers in Montana. The first photo shows a bison in YNP with a normal scrotum, the second is a YNP bison with ectopic testicles that was shown on our local TV news station and the third photo is a National Bison Range bison with no scrotum visible so likely has ectopic testicles. So LOL all you want, I had a good reason to ask. You all do know what a scrotum is don't you? I was once asked what a scrotum is, when I asked a person who reported a dead buck deer in their yard if it had a scrotum. That was really funny since the person had children. LOL!!!!
Recent studies of human urine in the U.S. shows that over 80% of those tested had glyphosate in their urine. I don't know that any of those humans were pesticide applicators. That was just ordinary people tested to see how much glyphosate they were getting from breathing the air, drinking water, and especially eating food.
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Recent studies of human urine in the U.S. shows that over 80% of those tested had glyphosate in their urine. I don't know that any of those humans were pesticide applicators. That was just ordinary people tested to see how much glyphosate they were getting from breathing the air, drinking water, and especially eating food.
I gave you my website (www.judyhoy.com) up at the beginning of this thread with lots of photo documents that are in the PDFs to Download as well as our studies and the SD study and data collected over several years by several independent (non-government) biologists. The studies, photos and collected data are not usually considered personal anecdotes, but whatever suits you to call it, I can't stop you. Here is some long term data on wild ruminants and a very small sample of cattle and bison.
