longhorns

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Anonymous

Alf,

You make some very good points and one that I have been attempting to make over and over again. That is, that there are many other breeds that are in fact black and polled. There are many other breeds (other than angus) that qualify and are utilized in the CAB program.

Yes, when you breed black and polled angus to black and polled of most other breeds, the majority of the time you would expect to get a black and polled calf. There would be added levels of hybrid vigor when crossing breeds regardless of their color and horn status.

You are also right that I have a chip on my shoulder when it comes to angus. Not so much angus cattle but the arrogance and ignorance of many of the people who breed them. I have made that clear many times. I also have a bias toward crossbred cattle when raising commercial cattle. You will find that most of the purebred breeders of breeds (other than angus) embrace crossbreeding and talk about it's benefits. It is only angus breeders, in just another exhibition of their arrogance, that promote straightbreeding for commercial beef production.

My posts are intended to add some balance to the overhyped propaganda put out by many angus purebred breeders. Besides, if they and their cattle are such a great and wonderful deal, then they ought to be able to take some some criticism.

You and many others would be surprised to find out just how many angus and angus cross cows I have raised over the years.
 
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Anonymous

Try to make a living on those two traits, lean dry beef and rabbit sized calves. As far as calving ease by using low bw angus bulls i can calve out 100 first calf heifers and pull maybe two calves, and usually one of them is pulled due to a abnormal presentation. No breed of cattle can avoid assistance in this case. Angus do everything a true cattlemen needs to be profitable, for those of you who have a few head of cattle and are trying to be the next Captain King and come up with the perfect breed of cattle forget it, it's already here. ANGUS ANGUS ANGUS.

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Anonymous

> Try to make a living on those two
> traits, lean dry beef and rabbit
> sized calves. As far as calving
> ease by using low bw angus bulls i
> can calve out 100 first calf
> heifers and pull maybe two calves,
> and usually one of them is pulled
> due to a abnormal presentation. No
> breed of cattle can avoid
> assistance in this case. Angus do
> everything a true cattlemen needs
> to be profitable, for those of you
> who have a few head of cattle and
> are trying to be the next Captain
> King and come up with the perfect
> breed of cattle forget it, it's
> already here. ANGUS ANGUS ANGUS.

Not so there is another and it has Angus beat hands down.It is a true american breed.BEEFALO.Ilove angus they are very pretty and they fit into crossbreed programs very well. Alot of folks fall back onto them at some time or another. But if you want to have it all including the numbers check out Beefalo.I have reasearched the verious breeds and in all due respect these animals are IN MY opinion the best.I am just starting out but the DR.s and researchers I have talked to show me the numbers are correct, and that is proof enfough.The consumers want lean healthy beef.You don't need to worry I will never compete with you. I don't want to get that big , but there are others who do.

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Anonymous

> I just feel that quality is up to
> the breeder.What one sees as
> quality another won't each person
> has his/her own opinion about
> conformation.thats why we have
> breed standards.As for killer
> horns I personaly can tell of one
> time I was training a horse ( I
> was a trainer for 30 yrs.)I saw my
> neighboors Longhorn steer out.This
> animal had HUGE horns.I knew he
> was gentle,but had never had a
> reason to go near him. He was out
> on the road and cars were stopped,
> people didn't want to go arround
> him because of hitting his horns.I
> stopped what I was doing and
> walked up to him..I swallowed and
> told him lets just see how gentle
> you are,I threw a rope arround his
> horns said ok big boy lets go
> home. That critter just led better
> than some horses I know.They are
> good natured animals.I hope the
> cattlemen who breed these animals
> hold to the ideals set by the
> standards keep breeding for gentle
> animals we all can continue to
> admire

I agree that there is no perfect breed and that crossbreeding is a good idea. I do have to disagree about the disposition of longhorns. I grew near the Wichita Mountains in Oklahoma where they helped save the breed. (being from Oklahoma, I love to remind my Texas buddies that their beloved Longhorn had to be saved in Oklahoma)Every year there were fools killed who wanted to pet the cute cows. One reason they survived in the "Old West" was their ornery disposition, not being doscile. I am curious to know if their improved immune systems have remained with all the "improved breeding" that is being done. If so, how much does this get watered down in a crossbreeding program?

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Anonymous

John I do not know what your chip is over black cattle and or Angus. If I was raising elephants then I would expect far higher 205 day weights. I raise moderate framed cattle that have to make it on grass and hay. The 205 day weights have been steadily been increasing and will continue with out frame creep.
 
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Anonymous

> I agree that there is no perfect
> breed and that crossbreeding is a
> good idea. I do have to disagree
> about the disposition of
> longhorns. I grew near the Wichita
> Mountains in Oklahoma where they
> helped save the breed. (being from
> Oklahoma, I love to remind my
> Texas buddies that their beloved
> Longhorn had to be saved in
> Oklahoma)Every year there were
> fools killed who wanted to pet the
> cute cows. One reason they
> survived in the "Old
> West" was their ornery
> disposition, not being doscile. I
> am curious to know if their
> improved immune systems have
> remained with all the
> "improved breeding" that
> is being done. If so, how much
> does this get watered down in a
> crossbreeding program?

I have had no bad experiences with longhorns' temperment in my 15+ years around longhorns, However, Longhorns still have great immune systems. i do not know if they get 'watered down' in a crossbreeding program.

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Anonymous

> I agree that there is no perfect
> breed and that crossbreeding is a
> good idea. I do have to disagree
> about the disposition of
> longhorns. I grew near the Wichita
> Mountains in Oklahoma where they
> helped save the breed. (being from
> Oklahoma, I love to remind my
> Texas buddies that their beloved
> Longhorn had to be saved in
> Oklahoma)Every year there were
> fools killed who wanted to pet the
> cute cows. One reason they
> survived in the "Old
> West" was their ornery
> disposition, not being doscile. I
> am curious to know if their
> improved immune systems have
> remained with all the
> "improved breeding" that
> is being done. If so, how much
> does this get watered down in a
> crossbreeding program?

I don't know about the crosbread,Longhorns but I do know that no matter how well trained a cow is they don't like strangers going into there pen.I still feel that if you raise a good calf from a good mother cow, No matter the breed you can train it to be a good animal.Other wise kids wouldn't be showing in FFA or 4-H. These kids show a varity of breeds. The price they recive isn't only baised on a quality animal but, also that they spent every night going out to work with there animals,training,grooming etc.etc..

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Anonymous

Johe S. I believe if you breed pure Black Angus with any breed that is polled and black the calf will always be black and polled... Nothing else can result, except a mutant(albino,etc.) or so I was taught in my genetic classes. As a commerical cattle breeded I would also want my cow to be F1 crosses breed to a third breed Bulls for termial crossed calf.. In Example Black Baldies crossed to a Black Simm., Limms. Bulls.That seems to be the data coming out of all the collages on cattle breeding...So I breed my pure blooded Black Angus to a polled Hereford Bulls to produce F1 black baldies cross back to Black Limms. In the deep south I think F1 Hereford X Bramahs cows cross to a Black angus bulls to produce a Black Baldies without to much ear would also be the trick... But the biggest point I want to make is ( this statement is a little strong, but I believe correct) ALL BLACK POLLED BEEF cattle have Black Angus in the back ground or Simms,Limms,Gelvieh,Branviah would still have the colors that I saw in the Late 70,s They would not be BLACK AND POLLED...2nd when CAB was started their requirments would have been different but they could not see or forcast the fact that all these other breeds were going to turn black and polled. It is not CAB programs fault that other breeds were going to pretend to be BLACK ANGUS...I also think the reason this happened is CAB marketing, but reguardless of the marketing if BLACK ANGUS were not a great breed the CAB program would not have been such a great success story.. And simms,limms,gelvieh,bramveih would not want to be black, the fact that they do is reason enough (proof) That Black Angus are great cattle... alf

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Anonymous

Sounds like you have a good idea for trying to breed black polled cattle that will make you money on the CAB program. I just wonder where you draw the line between trying to benefit financially and integrity?

Obviously you are not aware that there are other polled black breeds of cattle. Also other black horned breeds of cattle that have NO angus in them ZERO. I know absolutely, that many cattle with ZERO angus in them have went through the CAB program.

Ok, if you don't believe me, that is fine. So let's just take what you do believe about simmentals, gelbviehs, braunviehs, etc. And by the way, I do not condone continental breeds that breed for black and polled so they can take advantage of the CAB program. But again, the Angus Association has asked for it, in the way they set up the rules.

My question is where do you draw the line? I have have no problem with anything that is half angus or better being labeled and sold as CAB. Makes sense to me. What I do have a problem with is all the cattle that are of lower amounts of angus than 1/2. So what do you term an animal that is 7/8 simmental 1/8 angus? How about 15/16 simmental 1/16 angus. I guess I am pretty naïve but I would term those animals as simmentals rather than angus. Believe me, there have been many of that breeding sold as CAB. Alf, where do you draw the line or don't you care about integrity or what you tell consumers you are selling? From your example, evidently an animal carrying 1/4 angus genetics and 1/2 Limousin genetics is angus to you. Humor me. How about even being honest enough to term an animal whatever breed it has the most of. In that same example I would call the animal a limousin.

Here is something else you may not believe. There are actually a few courageous Black Angus breeders who have spoken out against the CAB fraud. You may term them stupid, I prefer to say they have integrity.

You will see the day when the CAB program is held accountable, no different than the Enron accountants, or Martha Stewart or Worldcom or any of them. It is all the same, when you make a short term profit by deception, in the long run you lose. The only reason that I am concerned (as I don't breed cattle and try to sell them as something they aren't) is that once consumers realize that the Angus guys have been cheating them, it will reflect negatively on all cattle producers, not just the breeders of black polled cattle.
 
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Anonymous

> Johe S. I believe if you breed
> pure Black Angus with any breed
> that is polled and black the calf
> will always be black and polled...
> Nothing else can result, except a
> mutant(albino,etc.) or so I was
> taught in my genetic classes. As a
> commerical cattle breeded I would
> also want my cow to be F1 crosses
> breed to a third breed Bulls for
> termial crossed calf.. In Example
> Black Baldies crossed to a Black
> Simm., Limms. Bulls.That seems to
> be the data coming out of all the
> collages on cattle breeding...So I
> breed my pure blooded Black Angus
> to a polled Hereford Bulls to
> produce F1 black baldies cross
> back to Black Limms. In the deep
> south I think F1 Hereford X
> Bramahs cows cross to a Black
> angus bulls to produce a Black
> Baldies without to much ear would
> also be the trick... But the
> biggest point I want to make is (
> this statement is a little strong,
> but I believe correct) ALL BLACK
> POLLED BEEF cattle have Black
> Angus in the back ground or
> Simms,Limms,Gelvieh,Branviah would
> still have the colors that I saw
> in the Late 70,s They would not be
> BLACK AND POLLED...2nd when CAB
> was started their requirments
> would have been different but they
> could not see or forcast the fact
> that all these other breeds were
> going to turn black and polled. It
> is not CAB programs fault that
> other breeds were going to pretend
> to be BLACK ANGUS...I also think
> the reason this happened is CAB
> marketing, but reguardless of the
> marketing if BLACK ANGUS were not
> a great breed the CAB program
> would not have been such a great
> success story.. And
> simms,limms,gelvieh,bramveih would
> not want to be black, the fact
> that they do is reason enough
> (proof) That Black Angus are great
> cattle... alf You need to study your basic cattle genetics book a little more. Some Angus cattle carry a recessive gene for red color( where Red Angus come from). When 2 of these animals are bred they have a chance of producing a red animal about 25% of the time. A fair number of the other black breeds that are bred up from Angus and Limo., Simmy, Saler, etc. also carry a recessive red gene so you will not always get a black calf from breeding Angus to another black breed.

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Anonymous

John S. I think it is hard for the CAB program not to have freud in it .In the furture there will be a DNA test that will tell the % of angus in something, But it is not the Black Angus breeder or the CAB program that is responible for the freud... It is the non-angus breeder that make there cattle look like angus in order to make the CAB program. They get the benifits Of the Program(CAB) without have the real product..alf

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Anonymous

Frist red angus did not Happen that way...Red and Black Angus developed at the same time together not one from another...But It was decided that Black was the standered(right color).. If red had been selected as the (right color) there would be no problem since Red is reccessive 2 reds mank red.. But here my point for nearly a 100-150 years (honest) Black Angus breeder have cull the recessive red cattle...So if you know your genetics - you know that red trait can stay for a long time...Also if you are a honest breeder then If you have a Red calf born to a Pure blood Reg. bull and cow , then both are not really Black Angus,They are not supposed to be Reg..or any of their offsprings... but not everyone is honest and some Reds slip through...If every angus breeder was honest, how many generations would it take to breed out the red? 10? 25? So in fact Reg.Black Angus should be Homo black ,and a red sport in Black angus should happen about as often as a albino...ALF-10-E-C

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Anonymous

The CAB program is the responsibility of the American Angus Association. Indirectly, it is the responsibility of each and every member of the American Angus Association. What is an association other than a collection of members?

Yes, it is the also the responsibility of each person that sells cattle through the CAB program to only present verifiable angus animals for CAB inspection. In reality, what is taking place is a convenient little "turn a blind eye to what is happening" pass the buck situation. NO ONE takes any responsibility whether they know what the cattle are or not. The inspector says, "as far as I knew, they were Angus" , feedlot and packer say the same. The association says that the inspectors are in charge of making sure the animals are angus.

Ultimately, the responsibility is that of the Angus Association. The real problem is that they are too money hungry and gutless to live up to their responsibilities. And I feel the same about each and every Angus Association member that turns their back on this well known fraud and keeps allowing it to happen. If you believe that less and less cattle of non-angus breeds are going to be sold through CAB in the future, then you have your head stuck deep in the sand.

The real crime (and make no mistake, I believe it is criminal to keep perpetuating this deception on consumers) is that it is so very simple to remedy. All the Angus Association has to do is require that any CAB animal has one registered Angus parent.

Don't worry it won't happen. I stand by what I have written. It is the responsibility of the American Angus Association to "clean up their act" but they are too money hungry and gutless to act.

As far as Angus breeders are concerned, if the shoe fits wear it. You don't have to answer to me, only to your own conscious. I have no more to say about this matter.
 
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Anonymous

I'm very pleased that the comments regarding Longhorns are a lot more "tame" than the board discussions about Angus! Angus purist people seem to have reduced tolerance for their own "competitors" programs as well as for any other breeds....now, the next item:

Quality Longhorn breeders only breed and keep quality, tame, etc., stock. Any "culls" that emerge are taken to the "Sale Barn" or to the freezer.

Only with one of our Longhorns would I dare pick up a newborn calf from under mamas nose to weigh it. Only with a longhorn would I attempt to lead it, pet it, or walk amoung "all those horns". They are know to be "Gentle Mamas" and "Gentle Daddys". There must be something to them when you go to a show and see a kid under age of 12 leading a large horned Longhorn around the arena like a puppy dog! I would never attempt any of the above feats with an English, Continental, or Commercial Cross-bred animal. One case in point: Recently my wife went to weigh a new born Longhorn calf in our pipe and rod holding/calving pen. She went to pick up the calf to weigh it, mama came over with 50+ inches of horn and was about 2 feet away--wife had her back to the pipe fence. Nothing happened--and, this cow was one of our most dominant, protective cows! Enuf said... have a great day!

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Anonymous

I am overjoyed that the lot of you have stopped your immature behavior. It disgusts me that people your age act as you do. I use this forum as a means of communicating with other cattle producers. If a person enjoys the breed they raise , so be it. I have a commercial herd and enjoy raising cattle that sometimes make me some money and sometimes make me lose money. I listen to what others have to say in this forum. dOES THAT MEAN i ALWAYS TAKE THEIR ADVICE. No. I do not have to constantly bash everyone else. So for those of you who use this for the appropriate purpose, Cheers to you. John S. I wish you would let everyone in on your secret breed of cattle? That after all would ease the tensions you have created with your fellow cattleman.
 
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Anonymous

Got a hot news flash for you, Bill. Every Angus calf born on this place is picked up under it's mother's nose and weighed within a few hours of birth!! At most any large show you'll see little kids leading several different breeds around. Longhorns are not the only tame and gentle breed (if they are tame and gentle). Just because you cull for disposition doesn't mean every Longhorn breeder does.

> I'm very pleased that the comments
> regarding Longhorns are a lot more
> "tame" than the board
> discussions about Angus! Angus
> purist people seem to have reduced
> tolerance for their own
> "competitors" programs
> as well as for any other
> breeds....now, the next item:

> Quality Longhorn breeders only
> breed and keep quality, tame,
> etc., stock. Any "culls"
> that emerge are taken to the
> "Sale Barn" or to the
> freezer.

> Only with one of our Longhorns
> would I dare pick up a newborn
> calf from under mamas nose to
> weigh it. Only with a longhorn
> would I attempt to lead it, pet
> it, or walk amoung "all those
> horns". They are know to be
> "Gentle Mamas" and
> "Gentle Daddys". There
> must be something to them when you
> go to a show and see a kid under
> age of 12 leading a large horned
> Longhorn around the arena like a
> puppy dog! I would never attempt
> any of the above feats with an
> English, Continental, or
> Commercial Cross-bred animal. One
> case in point: Recently my wife
> went to weigh a new born Longhorn
> calf in our pipe and rod
> holding/calving pen. She went to
> pick up the calf to weigh it, mama
> came over with 50+ inches of horn
> and was about 2 feet away--wife
> had her back to the pipe fence.
> Nothing happened--and, this cow
> was one of our most dominant,
> protective cows! Enuf said... have
> a great day!
 
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Anonymous

Do not doubt that, Frankie. (Next commet is NOT directed at you, ok?). Guess what ruffles my feathers sometimes on this and other boards is the intensity, bristling, etc., of the breeders and raisers of the various "other" (non-longhorn) breeds. It's like "It's OK if the others rant and rave and promote and praise THEIR breed...however, if someone so stupid as to raise Longhorns even dares to defend their breed, then the wrath of God (from all directions) descends on the lowly Longhorn breeder. It would really be nice if 95% of the posters to all the boards were little more tolerant of other's opinions and programs and not try to get into a "one upmanship" game. There is a lot of good information out there from everyone, good/bad/indifferent advice, and all. It's not a secret by any stretch of the imagination that breeders/raisers of some breeds are a touch arrogant and with a little primadonna complex; however, the world would be a lot more pleasant if people would enter into a nice discussion about "anything" without taking offense and disregarding the value of others opinions and programs. However, these type of issues are evident in ANY profession, business, or educational level...it is one huge pecking order, sociologically. Life is too short to unduly stress ourselves by attacking others. So, since this message is directed at the hundreds of people out there that interact with the various message boards, can't we all be a little more tolerant, accepting, and stop putting down and condemning each other???? (smiles and peace to all!)

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Anonymous

CAB is a fraudulent program, why don’t you file a lawsuit against them? And let us know how your suit goes in court. But you should also put Ford Motor Company on your list. All the parts stamped “Ford” in your truck are not made by Ford Motor Company. Are you shocked and surprised? Certified Angus Beef is produced under specifications approved by the USDA in packing plants licensed to pack CAB. Below is a link to USDA specs of branded beef programs in the US. CAB is the first one listed. If you take time to read these specs, you’ll see there is no requirement for an animal to be Angus. If a packer sells beef that doesn’t meet the USDA specifications as CAB, that’s fraud. I’m an Angus breeder and I’m very proud of the CAB program. Hey, I was proud of it before it got to be a major force in the beef industry. The fact that the American Angus Association put their money where their mouth was thirty years ago and offered a superior product to consumers at a time the entire industry was going the other way speaks well for the Association, as far as I’m concerned. I don’t doubt that someday CAB will be a source verified program, not because there’s anything wrong with the way it’s being run now, but for food safety reasons. You don’t like the way the CAB program is being run, get over it. You spend a good bit of time on this board worrying about the honesty, integrity and morals of Angus breeders. Take a break. Most of us are grown people who know right from wrong, and CAB is right.

<A HREF="http://www.ams.usda.gov/lsg/certprog/certbeef.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.ams.usda.gov/lsg/certprog/certbeef.htm</A>
 

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