Kicking the hay habit

[Muletrack]

I've not read Jim Gerrish's book. Am afraid to buy it because so much other material I've seen has little info for the far north. I'm in East Central North Dakota Corn/Soybean country. Although we are in the top 10 states for numbers of cows, the focus is mainly grain. There's little info available (practically nothing from NDSU) on regenerative grazing, or converting cropland to cattle (which is my ultimate goal). People always point me to Gabe Brown, but he is constantly planting, planting, planting ... yes, that works for him, but I figure, if I have to run a tractor, I might as well be baling. We have nothing that stockpiles well in North Dakota -- so bale grazing seems my best bet. Thoughts? Is Gerrish's book worth adding to my library?

 

[HDRider]

Is Gerrish's book worth adding to my library?

It is worth a read. I am a little south of him and I could not make good use of his advice. Maybe I should read it again.

 

[Muletrack]

It is worth a read. I am a little south of him and I could not make good use of his advice. Maybe I should read it again.

I am way north of most folk. Best information I can find on-line is usually from Manitoba. There isn't much out there for my area.

 

[SBMF 2015]

I went with a buddy to South West Iowa to buy some pairs about a month ago. This place has 150 cows, 15acres of corn and 400acres of hay. They said once the hfrs got bred they never saw grain again the rest of their life. The cows looked good.

 

[daneg]

Cows need fed in the frozen north, I have tried different ways to winter cows swath grazing a cereal crop, bale grazing, grazing corn, feed chopped Silage with a hot wire from the pit. I keep returning to bale grazing although I put out bales for 3 or 4 days at a time, trudging through deep snow while moving a hot wire gets old quick. This winter I am feeding 3lb of ddgs for the first time to stretch the hay and straw

 

[anewcomer]

If Jim Gerrish tells you a rabbit can pull a plow, hitch him up!

 

[Muletrack]

Cows need fed in the frozen north, I have tried different ways to winter cows swath grazing a cereal crop, bale grazing, grazing corn, feed chopped Silage with a hot wire from the pit. I keep returning to bale grazing although I put out bales for 3 or 4 days at a time, trudging through deep snow while moving a hot wire gets old quick. This winter I am feeding 3lb of ddgs for the first time to stretch the hay and straw

Yes, there is something to be said for starting a tractor much less often then we are used to. I'm bale grazing in a sacrifice area right now, and am moving fence. Will need to invest in a cordless drill if I'm going to keep it up for very long. Ground freezes pretty hard up here. So far, so good. But am all for extending the grazing season by a month or two -- at least until Christmas most years. Water is an issue, though. Cows still nursing calves need water, not snow. Just can't see how Gabe Brown's system of planting, planting, planting beats a few days running a baler. I don't want to mess with cash crops any more. Have a neighbor who is out of the buffalo business and still makes a few grass bales which I sometimes buy. Told him this year from now on I'll take every bale he rolls up. Meanwhile, I'm planting more alfalfa this summer.

 

[Rydero]

Just can't see how Gabe Brown's system of planting, planting, planting beats a few days running a baler.

Since he's always following other crops and zero tilling it's not taking a ton of effort to do. Most times he's not even spraying. The production will be much higher per acre with the seeded crops vs hay too. In our area if you're haying a good alfalfa field that's fertilized and you only get one cut you'll need 3 acres to winter a cow. If the field isn't very good or unfertilized production will fall off and you could be looking at 7-14 acres to winter a cow some years. Guys seeding grain, corn, millet, sorghum/sudan, triticale etc can usually pretty easily winter a cow on an acre or 3 cows/acre on a good corn crop. Lack of.production costs money too, you need more acres and it costs almost the same to cover ground for a poor crop as it does for a good one.

I'm all for extending the grazing season and if you figure out your cost/HD/day when you're feeding and you assign the same value for days that you would be feeding but don't have to because you seeded something to extend grazing it usually pencils out pretty well.

 

[Dave]

If Jim Gerrish tells you a rabbit can pull a plow, hitch him up!

If you want advise from Jim Gerrish just ask him when he is on this board. He is not here often but has been a member for a long time. I have been to workshops where he was the key note speaker. He is certainly worth listening to.

 

[Banjo]

I think the very first thing a person has to do is spring calving...exclusively IMO before you can even begin to kick the hay habit. I haven't kicked it yet, but I'm workin on it. Year round grazing is most suited for fescue country....in the Northern hemisphere.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

Every couple years somebody moves UP here to the frozen tundra with dreams of grazing year around, or feeding very little hay and grazing stockpile, or whatever the current fad is. They usually come from someplace south and move here where land is cheap thinking they will make it rich because they can own so much land they won't need hay.

Then a November storm drops 4 feet of snow in 12 hours. They are in a panic because their cows have nothing to eat and they can't even keep cows contained in their single poly wire fence. They call one of us "dumb" locals to come rescue their cows and feed them (because they don't even own a tractor as they had no plans of feeding hay).

The farm and house I am in right now was bought by me for pennies on the dollar from the bank who foreclosed on it from someone who had similar plans. He did make some hay for them but left it in the field until he needed it, because in his words "why handle it twice". Well that winter the snow was 6 to 7 foot deep when he needed it and he was unable to even find the bales let alone get them moved.

 

[kenny thomas]

I'm not sure that fully kicking the hay habit is the most profitable even here where fescue can be stockpiled.

 

[Dave]

I was at a grazing workshop some years ago. There was a man from over around Spokane who talked about kicking the hay feeding habit. Someone asked him what he did when they got a heavy snow. His reply was I didn't say we never feed hay. We work at cutting back but there is still a barn full if we need it.

 

[Rydero]

I was at a grazing workshop some years ago. There was a man from over around Spokane who talked about kicking the hay feeding habit. Someone asked him what he did when they got a heavy snow. His reply was I didn't say we never feed hay. We work at cutting back but there is still a barn full if we need it.

Great point. We get a lot of cold weather and often the snow prevents us from grazing. Whenever there's a discussion about extended grazing around here with more than a couple of like minded people someone will point out it won't work here in January and February. Ignoring that most feed hay from November to May. A person can start with November and May and go from there. Have feed available as a backup plan.

 

[Silver]

Fortunately up here there isn't even a sniff of a chance of "kicking the hay habit" so people are generally prepared. Which isn't to say there aren't some folks who push it further than they should.

 

[faster horses]

You just can't starve a profit out of a cow.

 

[Stocker Steve]

People always point me to Gabe Brown, but he is constantly planting, planting, planting ... yes, that works for him, but I figure, if I have to run a tractor, I might as well be baling. We have nothing that stockpiles well in North Dakota -- so bale grazing seems my best bet. Thoughts? Is Gerrish's book worth adding to my library?

Gabe is a likable land rich forage guy who focuses on improving the soil. His recipe for improved pasture is two years of cover crop mixes followed by a perennial pasture mix. Direct marketing drives his financials.

No. You are not in the fescue belt, and Dave' book was written in a period when hay was very cheap. Buy Gordon Hazard's book if you need some winter reading. Tour the Dickinson station if you want to see some winter grazing.

You have to decide if you are a grain guy, a cattle marketing guy, or a forage guy. An optimizing forage guy will have several soil zones that require different approaches. I have three:

-Wet permanent pasture. Could be worked in a bad drought if you really like reed canary, but you might have to wait 50 years, and/or do fall tillage.

- Poorly drained meadow soils that do not grow grain crops well and are too far north to justify tile plus a lift station. Probably has enormous deer pressure... I struggled with how to afford renovating this kind. Current effort is based on a little grading with a dozer, a Jap millet mix, a cross bow, and a really long sod rotation.

- Better drained upland soils that need fertility and water holding capacity. Here I use a variation of Gabe' recipe that usually starts with bale grazing and ends up being a 7 to 10 yearlong rotation. The perennial sod will often get a one cut and then graze treatment each year.

 

[Stocker Steve]

I'm in East Central North Dakota Corn/Soybean country. Although we are in the top 10 states for numbers of cows, the focus is mainly grain.

The corn belt keeps moving. What county are u in?

 

[Muletrack]

The corn belt keeps moving. What county are u in?

Stutsman County. We have an ethanol plant and are in the process of building a large soy crushing plant at Spiritwood on the site of the former Cargill barley malt plant. Losing our source of barley malt pellets stinks (local elevators liked to keep some on hand). My farm was nearly all in corn this year (but did not produce well because of the drought).

 

[Banjo]

I'm not sure that fully kicking the hay habit is the most profitable even here where fescue can be stockpiled.

Your probably right unless you want to run a very low stocking rate