Keep your cows in our you could go to jail.

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bmoore87":11jtgow2 said:
I can see having to pay for damages and a ticket but getting charged with manslaughter and up to 15 years seems extreme.
If we are going to imprison people for cattle being out repeatedly...
(3 times in 2 months not a good thing but many that have more out) ....
How much punishment is just? Or is this rubbing salt in a wound? Why? ... Real criminals too hard to catch?
The "accident" happened a year ago July 2015.
The monetary Civil lawsuit has already been settled and it has already punished and held the bull owner accountable.
Seems to me the government prosecutor is coming late to the party and is piling on, just because he can.

What about driver negligence and driver responsibility for having care, custody and control of their vehicle?
Is the driver 100% blameless just because he died?
Seems the crash may or may not have happened in the daylight.
The milk truck driver saw the animal, avoided any collision and reported it 15 minutes before the fatal crash.
Why not the driver of the car?
He not only hit the animal, but apparently the speed at which he was traveling caused him to continue on and
he was killed when he crashed into the tree.

I nearly hit a horse once at night in the middle road, but I had control of my car, slowed and avoided it.
A horse or 2,000 lb bull wandering on the road or by the roadside is not as difficult to see and avoid as freak'n deer
that jump out at the last second.
 
Son of Butch":3ax5dab2 said:
bmoore87":3ax5dab2 said:
I can see having to pay for damages and a ticket but getting charged with manslaughter and up to 15 years seems extreme.
If we are going to imprison people for cattle being out repeatedly...
(3 times in 2 months not a good thing but many that have more out) ....
How much punishment is just? Or is this rubbing salt in a wound? Why? ... Real criminals too hard to catch?
The "accident" happened a year ago July 2015.
The monetary Civil lawsuit has already been settled and it has already punished and held the bull owner accountable.
Seems to me the government prosecutor is coming late to the party and is piling on, just because he can.

What about driver negligence and driver responsibility for having care, custody and control of their vehicle?
Is the driver 100% blameless just because he died?
Seems the crash may or may not have happened in the daylight.
The milk truck driver saw the animal, avoided any collision and reported it 15 minutes before the fatal crash.
Why not the driver of the car?
He not only hit the animal, but apparently the speed at which he was traveling caused him to continue on and
he was killed when he crashed into the tree.

I nearly hit a horse once at night in the middle road, but I had control of my car, slowed and avoided it.
A horse or 2,000 lb bull wandering on the road or by the roadside is not as difficult to avoid as freak'n deer that jump
out at the last second.

I have to disagree I totaled two on cows
Black cows covering up the curve of a paved road.
Pretty
 
Law here says "No one may knowingly or willingly allow livestock to roam freely. That, is the livestock/property owner's 'out', if a tree falls on a fence or if someone other than the owner opened a gate and left it open. One of the state attorney generals once said "Neither God nor man ever built a fence tall enough or strong enough to keep a determined animal in or a determined lawyer out".

but.......
Once the owner was informed, he fell under the 'knowingly' part. The civil side of this has nothing to do with the criminal aspect--2 completely different things.

The milk truck driver saw the animal, avoided any collision and reported it 15 minutes before the fatal crash.
Why not the driver of the car?
He not only hit the animal, but apparently the speed at which he was traveling caused him to continue on and
he was killed when he crashed into the tree.
There ain't a jury in the world ever gonna convict a dead man of loss of control after he hit a cow in the middle of the road, and even bringing that point up in trial would have the reverse effect of what was intended. (assuming it doesn't happen in an open range county--things change then) Any 1st year lawyer would counter that with 'the impact caused him to continue on and hit the tree', and it would stick too.

Around here, the fine for letting cattle run free is pretty small, but the liability if someone hits one can take everything you ever had or hoped to have--IF the plaintiff can prove the owner "knowingly and willingly" let the livestock run free or had a history of doing so.
 
Drivers often blowing through on rural roads makes me think excessive speed may have been a contributing factor.
Article lacks so much information that no reliable judgment can be made.

The fact that it has taken nearly a year for the owner to be charged is puzzling.
Civil settlements are secondary and the vast majority of criminal vehicular charges happen in less than 60 days.
It took less than 10 days for the prosecutor to charge that woman in Hawaii with manslaughter for driving a white ford bronco off a 200' cliff in which the driver's twin sister was killed.
 
Son of Butch":3seq7vv4 said:
bmoore87":3seq7vv4 said:
I can see having to pay for damages and a ticket but getting charged with manslaughter and up to 15 years seems extreme.
If we are going to imprison people for cattle being out repeatedly...
(3 times in 2 months not a good thing but many that have more out) ....
How much punishment is just? Or is this rubbing salt in a wound? Why? ... Real criminals too hard to catch?
The "accident" happened a year ago July 2015.
The monetary Civil lawsuit has already been settled and it has already punished and held the bull owner accountable.
Seems to me the government prosecutor is coming late to the party and is piling on, just because he can.

What about driver negligence and driver responsibility for having care, custody and control of their vehicle?
Is the driver 100% blameless just because he died?
Seems the crash may or may not have happened in the daylight.
The milk truck driver saw the animal, avoided any collision and reported it 15 minutes before the fatal crash.
Why not the driver of the car?
He not only hit the animal, but apparently the speed at which he was traveling caused him to continue on and
he was killed when he crashed into the tree.

I nearly hit a horse once at night in the middle road, but I had control of my car, slowed and avoided it.
A horse or 2,000 lb bull wandering on the road or by the roadside is not as difficult to see and avoid as freak'n deer
that jump out at the last second.
:clap:
 
greybeard":7vmod9dj said:
There ain't a jury in the world ever gonna convict a dead man of loss of control after he hit a cow
in the middle of the road,
I am saying the driver was not in proper control of the vehicle even before he hit the bull.

Around here, the fine for letting cattle run free is pretty small, but the liability if someone hits one can take everything you ever had or hoped to have--IF the plaintiff can prove the owner "knowingly and willingly" let the livestock run free or had a history of doing so.
I agree. But the liability issue has already been addressed and the settlement has been reached.
The article didn't say in what amount, but I assume it was sizable.

I'm just wondering what the government prosecutor is trying to prove...does he really believe the bulls owner should be imprisoned for 15 years and why?
 
while I agree he should have looked longer and checked his fence I dont agree that you need to stay out their all night chasing them until you get them in or you are negligent. Often times if they arent near to your pasture you will end up spooking them in the dark if you can even find them and you are better off leaving them alone until light and they will usually bed down for the night.

We have several feedlots around us they have a couple cattle that will get pushed through the fenceline bunks each month(pens made out of guardrail and continuos fence) some of them get left out in the tall corn until harvest time because you cant find them. If someone hits them should they be charged for knowing they have cattle out and not doing enough about it and who is going to decide that, it will probably not be someone with a knowledge of agriculture and what things are reasonable or negligent in agriculture. The guy who is charged with this obviously made a mistake by not looking longer but a 15 year felony I dont think so. This worries me more about the standard it sets in general.

Agree with Jo anytime you get a call about cows out and they end up not being yours follow up with the sheriffs department to make sure their was no miscommunication somewhere along the way and it being a mark on your record.
 
In Texas the laws are still in our favor
what we have to realize is the city slickers way out number us. Without us being very diligent I could see this change. We should all be very well read in our states estray laws and do diligence to uphold them.
The world in which we operate is changing. We have went from being the majority before WWII to a very small minority today. Their glasses don't view the world as we do, common sense is not common anymore.
 
Son of Butch":18rqwzs9 said:
greybeard":18rqwzs9 said:
There ain't a jury in the world ever gonna convict a dead man of loss of control after he hit a cow
in the middle of the road,
I am saying the driver was not in proper control of the vehicle even before he hit the bull.

Around here, the fine for letting cattle run free is pretty small, but the liability if someone hits one can take everything you ever had or hoped to have--IF the plaintiff can prove the owner "knowingly and willingly" let the livestock run free or had a history of doing so.
I agree. But the liability issue has already been addressed and the settlement has been reached.
The article didn't say in what amount, but I assume it was sizable.

I'm just wondering what the government prosecutor is trying to prove...does he really believe the bulls owner should be imprisoned for 15 years and why?
You can say that all you want to, but it's based on absolutely nothing, and the jury is likely to see it like that as well.
I know of 2 different instances where a tree blew down across a county road and people hit it both times. They were 'out of control of their vehicle? Some drunk goes the wrong way down a one way highway and someone hits them head on (even with THEIR headlights on) is the sober driver guilty of not being in control of their vehicle?
Bottom line is, that there ain't supposed to be cows in the road--it's just not something the driving public is prone to watch for or or is expected to be alert for. Deer--in this part of the world-always, but deer don't weigh 1500+lbs. That's not an immovable object but it it's close enough.

Prosecutor's motive? It didn't say what it was, so I assume it's to carry out the duties of his office and prosecute those who break the law if there's enough evidence to support a case.
 
greybeard":3rj1lgcs said:
Some drunk goes the wrong way down a one way highway and someone hits them head on (even with THEIR headlights on) is the sober driver guilty of not being in control of their vehicle?
YES.... 5/95 split ... maybe more as you stated the sober driver hit him, implying drunk was able to stop before the collision while the sober driver was unable or unwilling to and continued onward into the headlights.
Unless a car is legally parked, each driver is considered 5% or more at fault depending upon the circumstances.
 
Son of Butch":2pwjc3ur said:
greybeard":2pwjc3ur said:
Some drunk goes the wrong way down a one way highway and someone hits them head on (even with THEIR headlights on) is the sober driver guilty of not being in control of their vehicle?
YES.... 5/95 split ... maybe more as you said the sober driver hit him, implying drunk had stopped before collision.
Unless a car is legally parked, each driver is considered 5% or more at fault depending upon the circumstances.

If it were YOUR wife and/or kid(s) driving home from work, sober, at the posted speed limit, with their seatbelt(s) on and some ignorant stupid drunk driver hit and injured/killed them...... Would it still be 5% their fault? I doubt it. That's absurd.
 
Maybe they'll shave 5% off a 15 yr sentence and he'll only get 14 years 3 months.
The bull was described as an 1,800-pound Scottish Highlander bull in one article--a 1500lb Scottish Highlander in another.

Mosher's court hearing is at 3 p.m. Monday at Rutland Criminal court. Here is the affidavit, published this morning in the Rutland Herald of Vermont:

Shortly before a Connecticut driver hit Craig Mosher's bull in a fatal crash, a milk truck driver blew his air horn outside Mosher's Killington home to warn Mosher his bull was loose, according to court documents filed in Rutland criminal court on Friday afternoon.

In a notice of intent to offer evidence of other crimes, wrongs and acts filed by Rutland County State's Attorney Rose Kennedy, the details surrounding Craig Mosher's grand jury indictment were revealed:

At 9:58 p.m., July 31, 2015, after Mosher did not come out of his house, the milk truck driver called Vermont State Police to say he almost hit a bull on Route 4 in Killington.

At 10:13 p.m., while on route to respond to the loose bull call, the state trooper received a report that a vehicle had struck the bull and there were injuries.

At 10:21 p.m. State Police arrived on scene.

At 10:37 p.m., Mosher arrived on scene and told State Police that after the milk truck driver warned him, he went to look for the bull on his property, couldn't find him and went home and fell asleep.

At 10:40 p.m., Jon Bellis, 62, was pronounced dead at the scene by paramedic Gideion Yeager. The bull was killed in the crash.

On April 4, following a grand jury investigation, Mosher was indicted and charged with involuntary manslaughter in Bellis' death. According to court records, Mosher failed to heed a warning about the loose bull the night of the fatal crash. Additionally, there were repeated calls to State Police about the bull being loose on Route 4 on several occasions in the weeks leading up to the crash, according to police.

Mosher pleaded innocent to the manslaughter charge in Rutland criminal court at the time he was given his indictment.

Prior to Friday's filing, the details surrounding the escaped bull and Mosher's alleged actions were not available because grand jury proceedings are secret. But the State Police affidavit became part of the public court record with Kennedy's filing on Friday.

"The defendant admitted that the milk truck driver woke him up and told him that his bull had been in the roadway and was down on the lawn of the Val Roc Motel," Kennedy wrote in her notice to the court. "Defendant said that he did not look for his bull there, but rather only on his property, assuming the milk truck driver was wrong. Defendant said he did not see his bull so he went back inside his house and fell asleep."

Mosher's attorney, Paul Volk, could not be reached for comment, following phone and email attempts on Friday afternoon and evening.

According to Kennedy's filing, the milk truck driver, Jeffrey Herrick, said he had to stand on his brakes in order to avoid hitting the bull and that he left skid marks on the roadway. Herrick told State Police he saw the bull walk across the roadway and onto the lawn of the Val Roc Motel on Route 4. Because Herrick knew the 1,800-pound Scottish Highlander bull belonged to Mosher, he drove to his home, banged on his door and blew his truck's air horn to alert the defendant, Kennedy wrote.

"Eventually defendant opened an upstairs window and the milk truck driver told defendant that his bull was at the Val Roc Motel, that he had just almost hit the bull on Route 4," Kennedy wrote. "Defendant told the milk truck driver that he would come out and get his bull. The milk truck driver waited a couple of minutes and did not see the defendant come out of his house so he drove further on Route 4 until he had cell service and called State Police."

In Trooper Robert Rider's affidavit, there were three witnesses to the actual crash. Jason Sasbon, who lives at the Val Roc Motel, said he was outside walking when the crash occurred. He told Rider that the bull was in the middle of the road and when Bellis' vehicle hit the bull it went on top of the vehicle for a short time and the car veered to the left, went off the road and struck a tree. According to Rider, Sasbon said he never saw the car brake and after it struck the tree, he ran over to try to help.

Bellis' wife, Kathryn Barry Bellis, was able to get out of the vehicle, but Bellis was gasping for air, according to the affidavit. Another witness said that he estimated Bellis was traveling about 35 to 40 miles per hour, according to the affidavit.

In the early morning hours after the crash, State Police walked with Mosher along the pasture fence line and a section of the electric fence was lifted about six feet off the ground.

Rider explained in his affidavit that the wire was being held up by a small apple tree. "It appeared that the tree was pushed/bent over and went between the top and bottom wires," he wrote. "When the force that bent the tree stopped, the tree returned to its natural upright position catching the top wire and lifting it approximately six feet off the ground."

According to Rider's affidavit, State Police have been called several times regarding Mosher's animals being out of the pasture. On May 19, a cow was reported loose on Route 4; on June 20, a bull was reported in the roadway; on June 23, a bull was reported in the roadway; on July 26, the bull was reported out of the pasture; on July 30, the bull was reported out of the pasture; and on July 31, the bull was out on Route 4.

edit:
It's pretty hard to accurately estimate a vehicle's speed, but he's probably in the ball park.
The other underlined part, I just don't understand. If he didn't find the bull on his own property, why would he still assume the driver was wrong and just go back to bed?
 
6 separate reports of animals out within 73 days....seems he probably was an irresponsible j.a. who's animals were out so often it could be considered habitual given that he sure didn't get excited about it when informed of it this last time.
 
One of the problems with people that don't want to keep fences up is the small fine associated with the offense. I don't remember what it is in my county, but looking at Vt's law, it says "not to exceed $100". Some cases, it might be cheaper to pay the fine and let them run loose than fix the fence right. It don't take long to spend $100 on wire and posts.

Around here, the deputies woulda done read that owner the riot act and the county judge would have probably ordered him to fix the fence immediately or sell his cattle. I saw it happen in 2012 to a guy I knew well that lived about a mile from me, but in his case, he was 'old school' and when grass dried up, he for years, had just let his cows 'run the bottom" and they ended up at the bridge on the county road in front of my place. Deputies just got tired of dealing with it and took it in front of the judge. Off to the sale barn they went. Just as well I guess--JF died last year.
 
I think 15 years is a draconian sentence for this, with the number of drunk drivers that get slaps on the wrist.. But I do think the guy was negligent since his animals were perpetually on the road... But if that's the case, the Sheriff's dept. was negligent too in not taking action to prevent this.. if they were out that often it's just a matter of time before someone hit it.

I find it strange that the guy looks for the bull in his pasture, and NOT seeing it there goes back to bed, when he was told it was at the motel
 
Nesikep":8708iucn said:
I think 15 years is a draconian sentence for this, with the number of drunk drivers that get slaps on the wrist.. But I do think the guy was negligent since his animals were perpetually on the road... But if that's the case, the Sheriff's dept. was negligent too in not taking action to prevent this.. if they were out that often it's just a matter of time before someone hit it.

I find it strange that the guy looks for the bull in his pasture, and NOT seeing it there goes back to bed, when he was told it was at the motel

Agree. I would be willing to bet he didn't go look for it at all, given the tight timeline set forth above. (Sounds like he thought his cattle were free-range).
I do agree the sentence sounds high, compared to what out-and-out murderers and drunk drivers get sometimes. But I do think he deserved more than a money judgment civilly and a wrist-slap criminally. The prosecutor no doubt wants to make sure others get the message to "keep yer !@#&^%! animals in."
 
boondocks":15498dbq said:
Nesikep":15498dbq said:
I think 15 years is a draconian sentence for this, with the number of drunk drivers that get slaps on the wrist.. But I do think the guy was negligent since his animals were perpetually on the road... But if that's the case, the Sheriff's dept. was negligent too in not taking action to prevent this.. if they were out that often it's just a matter of time before someone hit it.

I find it strange that the guy looks for the bull in his pasture, and NOT seeing it there goes back to bed, when he was told it was at the motel

Agree. I would be willing to bet he didn't go look for it at all, given the tight timeline set forth above. (Sounds like he thought his cattle were free-range).
I do agree the sentence sounds high, compared to what out-and-out murderers and drunk drivers get sometimes. But I do think he deserved more than a money judgment civilly and a wrist-slap criminally. The prosecutor no doubt wants to make sure others get the message to "keep yer !@#&^%! animals in."
I'm all for that, but I don't know if jailing him for 15 years is any more of a deterrent than jailing for 1 year.. Apparently there's too many empty cells around.
I think the sheriff's office should have been harder on him earlier.. And I don't think he got out of bed either.
 
I think you're right boondocks. He probably won't get the full 15 years and may not even be found guilty, but the word will be out that they aren't going to tolerate it......... in Vt anyway. Even if found not guilty, he will spend a bundle of $$$$ defending himself--probably 100X what a good fence would have cost..

The thing about blaming it or part of it on the sheriff's dept is that none of us wants a nanny state where 'they' tell us every day to how to wipe our butts and keep our nose clean. This guy has been around awhile--he knew what a good fence was and what good management should entail. He just didn't do it, got away with it for some time, probably figured he always would and finally, someone died because of it. That's not the deputy's fault--that's his. If there hadn't been previous problems and it had just been a case of that apple tree falling on the fence that night--totally different.
 

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