Jersey Genetics? HELP!!!

[regolith]

New Zealand proofs don't include teat length - it's one thing that really annoys me that you have to use the bulls to find out that nearly every daughter has such short teats they're dificult to milk. So far I've only got caught out that way with one bull, but that's one too many.
CP, if you have access to converted (US) proofs for these bulls that include teat length could you let me know please? It's possible that the information is simply never recorded by the classifiers when they're assessing daughters, but it would be nice to have, even if it was only an ancestry-generated Breeding Value.

Farmers love Astound - called Fabulous in NZ. I think WWS were marketing him but maybe harder to obtain now. I was keen to give him a try if I could get hold of some. How do they go for temperament, I think I read somewhere that they were similar to Flower Powers?

 

[Loch Valley Fold]

Don't get me started on FlowerPower my Astounds are way superior than FlowerPower temperament wise they were perfect FP's had a tendency to stomp & kick while cupping up, for me that is a big no no some would come in kicking out at you as they walked up the platform couple were so hard to get back in calf we actually milked 1 for 2yrs before we finally got her bred in reality she should have went long before she did but she was my fathers favourite what can you do? they were a bit swaybacked.
Astounds were slightly taller really good udders very collapsible & not fleshy both teat placement & teat length were good same goes with their feet & legs they work well on grass based pasture dairies.
Flowerpower was very popular here in Aust, however we may have had bad luck with the ones we had but it was enough that I wouldn't use or recommend him if there were better bulls around.
Semex used to include teat length, placement & udder ligaments in their catalogs don't know if they still do but it is a handy tool when it comes to picking out the right bull for your herd.

Astound would be on of those bull I'd happily pay $$$ to have sitting in my tank

 

[regolith]

that's why I didn't use Flower Power. got a calf to him last spring, cow came back from lease with her inside... I think I'd rather see her than some of the sires they came back in-calf to (Starlight/Jarmo I sold anything from those two bulls). I probably figured last time I was choosing bulls that Tahau Northern Lights did everything FP did with far better management traits.

Astound is in the back list of the 2009 WWS catalogue - I don't have a more recent one and have never seen a proof for him.
Semex do have teat length but not for NZ proven bulls - if those bulls had daughters in Aus or the US there might be a teat length BV available on their overseas proofs.
Did you ever use Valerian or Elton? I put some Elton into the herd this year, should see calves to him next spring.

 

[cow pollinater]

CP, if you have access to converted (US) proofs for these bulls that include teat length could you let me know please? ?

Let me know what specific bulls you're interested in and who carries them here in the US. Registation numbers are the best bet as I can search directly from the association if I can't find a proof from any major studs.
For what it's worth, another way to solve the teat length problem when you don't have the information on that trait is to really get nitpicky about somatic cell proofs. The cattle with teats so short that a machine won't stay on without slipping have bad scores regardless of their genetic makeup for that particular trait. Some cattle that have shorter teats are okay but the worst will show up really quick that way.
Over the years I've learned to watch even more closely the information that gets left out than the information that gets presented. :nod:

Edited to add: Teat length is fairly low on heritability so it's a good one to keep in mind over the course of years but please don't chase it at the expense of other traits that are more heritable and possibly more valuable... It's a good trait to average in over a long period of time. Use extremes when they also fit the rest of what you're trying to do but otherwise set your limit at mildly above average and let it get better with time.

 

[regolith]

I'll keep that in mind re SCC. Teat length isn't something I want to chase, but it is an issue where the combination of wide front teats/short teats or even just short teats alone can render a heifer un-milkable for the first few days if not the whole of her first lactation. Did have five daughters to one bull and about four of them the cups would keep slipping off because there wasn't enough teat for them to sit on.
Is a bull code like 104015 =(Frostman) a registration number? That's how they're identified here.
For next year I'm looking at Firenze, Roscoe, Turbo (HolsteinFriesian) Murmur and Manhatten (Jersey) and all should be fine on teat length. Might change my mind on one or two of those... I sent plenty of straws back into storage after AI and only need a few straws of top indexing bulls to keep my herd BW average (and value) near the national average. I've got some Regal (306117) in storage and some PT Jersey who shouldn't be a problem if the dams/aunties/sisters are any indication. Regal is the only unknown factor - Murmur's half sisters in my herd all have long enough teats and I've milked several Manhatten daughters and the Danish Jersey bulls also in storage come with overseas proofs.

 

[Loch Valley Fold]

No never tried Elton or Valerain but Valerian is my choice but is too closely related to a far few of our dairy cows. One young bull I did try was Sandblast (he is related to Tailboard) these should be calving shortly I was very lucky as the breeder contacted me to see if I would be interested in trying an unproven bull that the AI companies wouldn't pick up but he thought had a lot of potential. I shy away from NZ genetics ever since Manhatten was used so heavily & just about everything that came out of NZ had him as their sire. That is just a problem I don't want in my herd

Edited to add Astound can be viewed at the Genetics Australia site www.genaust.com.au follow the link to Jersey & click on Molly Brook Berretta Fabalous

 

[regolith]

I've never had an answer from the lic/ambreed reps about Manhatten... whether I use him next year, I think it's a risk I'm prepared to take; I've still got 7 yr old daughters in the herd and some of their daughters. Both companies say they're confident the abnormalities won't show up in the next generation, I'd like to know how they know that if they don't even know what the abnormality is??
Possibly one good thing about genomics is that it might spread out the breeding a little - sires that haven't even got their daughter proof yet are being used as sires of sons, so maybe we'll get away from the Manhatten/Maunga/Nevvy bias that's happening right now (I don't use Nevvy sons either, the two daughters I've had were extremely nervous).

 

[regolith]

got that link, thanks. I take it you haven't had issues with daughter fertility?

 

[vclavin]

Oh My!! Choosing a sire for my Jersey girls is not going to be easy . Not even sure if they are pure (supposed to be, but Dairy guy that bought them at a sale wasn't sure Jersey dams were bred to pure Jersey bulls)
As I have absolutely no idea as to pedigree. What would you feel safe to use on heifers? Grass based of course. Gentle dispositions a must. High milk not super necessary (dams gave 50lbs day ) exceptional cream would be great -lol. I think the shorter frame would be nice too. I'm game for ideas... not too many... gets confusing. Might add some insights about bulls daughters with suggestions. Thanks for all your help.
Valerie

 

[vclavin]

Deacon, Joskin, Zues, Aim, and Henry these are the sires in the dairy mans tank.
here's the link to the catalog :http://www.licnz.com/sire_catalogue2.cfm
Valerie

 

[regolith]

Deacon, Joskin, Zues, Aim, and Henry these are the sires in the dairy mans tank.
here's the link to the catalog :http://www.licnz.com/sire_catalogue2.cfm
Valerie

http://lic.co.nz/lic_RAS_Lists1.cfm?ab_ ... 03&ps_id=2
Aim is Maunga/Manhatten background, first proof, good production but management and udder traits very average and I wouldn't touch a minus rated fertility. Supplementary pedigree

http://lic.co.nz/lic_Sire_Lineup.cfm?ab ... info_id=13
Joskin high production, great fertility, not so good management traits. He's a Manhatten son. Pedigree. I marked him in the '11 catalogue as a possible for my herd, chose against him because of the temperament and Manhatten link.

http://lic.co.nz/lic_Sire_Lineup.cfm?ab ... info_id=13
Zeus lower production, very good management (temperament) and udders. Main thing to watch for is the high rump angle... I can see it in his heifers that I have. Panache/Casper, bit of Fjord... looks like he might be linebred (deliberately?) with Admiral repeating several times. Also pedigree.

I think Deacon may be Deeno's full brother... I have 2 yr heifers to Deeno this year. Kept a Henry calf last spring. Both are off the LIC list, might find them on www.aeu.org.nz

 

[regolith]

http://www.aeu.org.nz/sire_detail.cfm?i ... 7CD3C79790
Henry - Maunga/Ace. I like his components%, slight negative rump angle he's generally unremarkable in every trait.

Yes, Deacon is brother to one of the bulls I used in 08, now milking daughters to. I thought I chose the better brother
http://www.aeu.org.nz/sire_detail.cfm?i ... 0D21251E3E
Looking at that... wouldn't waste anything on this bull. Low production, low fertility, poor management traits.
I'm happy with my Deeno daughters... all except one, and she's improved vastly since the spring.

If it were me I'd be choosing between Zeus and Henry, with Joskin a highly suspect third choice.
Which catalogue is that? The 2012 one should be out within a couple of weeks, the link you posted killed my connection. The very last page should give you current average BVs for each breed which is helpful to compare with the bull BVs (breeding values) - (it'll tell you if the bull is an improvement on the average NZ Jersey cow for that trait or not)

 

[regolith]

You've probably seen this already - found the catalogue link on there too, it's not the same one we see in NZ http://www.licnz.com/sire_team6.cfm?
Deeno and Deacon aren't brothers - I think it's uncle/nephew can't quite make my brain work it out. One is Deena's son the other her grandson.

 

[vclavin]

Regolith , thanks. You confirmed what I had. But I also crosses Deacon off my list. That leaves me with Zeus. I haven't figured out how to tell a heifer safe bull from one that should only be used on cows.
Also, if there's one in the catalog that really stands out to you and is safe to use on heifers, let me know. Maybe I can get him to order the semen for me. From your info, it is obious he is not good at picking bulls yet (he hasn't been doing this for long)
thanks.
Valerie

 

[regolith]

They are all heifer safe.
If you look in the catalogues you'll see a BV for 'calving difficulty'. As long as it's a minus value (and they all are) you're good to go on heifers.
I did manage to download the US catalogue and save it to my computer so I'll have another look through later.

 

[vclavin]

They are all heifer safe.
If you look in the catalogues you'll see a BV for 'calving difficulty'. As long as it's a minus value (and they all are) you're good to go on heifers.
I did manage to download the US catalogue and save it to my computer so I'll have another look through later.

Thanks so much for your help. I really appreciate your taking time to do this.
Valerie

 

[regolith]

My 2012 LIC catalogue arrived this morning!
Others you might want to look at: Target, Genius, Supernova, Jester. All are slightly larger than average, all except Genius are Manhatten sons or grandsons. Management traits aren't that great for Target, SCC BV (disposition towards mastitis) is poor on Genius' proof.
If I order any from LIC this year I may give Supernova and Jester a try, being careful not to use Jester on any slow milking cows. Jester isn't *yet* listed on the US team.
George is the current number 1 bull... doesn't appeal to me though with fairly low management traits, steep rump angle and his proof indicates wide teat placement.

 

[vclavin]

My 2012 LIC catalogue arrived this morning!
Others you might want to look at: Target, Genius, Supernova, Jester. All are slightly larger than average, all except Genius are Manhatten sons or grandsons. Management traits aren't that great for Target, SCC BV (disposition towards mastitis) is poor on Genius' proof.
If I order any from LIC this year I may give Supernova and Jester a try, being careful not to use Jester on any slow milking cows. Jester isn't *yet* listed on the US team.
George is the current number 1 bull... doesn't appeal to me though with fairly low management traits, steep rump angle and his proof indicates wide teat placement.

I thought Iwas supposed to stay away from Manhatten? Are there exceptions?
valerie

 

[regolith]

I thought Iwas supposed to stay away from Manhatten? Are there exceptions?
valerie

That's why I tell you which ones they are. Put it this way... I've been through every bull in the 'classic daughter proven jersey' section of my new catalogue and in my opinion four of them are worth considering. Three of those are related to Manhatten.
Both Ambreed and LIC have told me they are confident in breeding sons from him and distributing them widely. You need to know that some of Manhatten's calves have been born with abnormalities of the hind legs/spine.
I already have his daughters in my herd and if I have to put down such a calf it's one heifer out of forty or fifty, so it's a calculated risk if I use his genetics. Just know what the risk is if you look at these bulls.

 

[vclavin]

I thought Iwas supposed to stay away from Manhatten? Are there exceptions?
valerie

That's why I tell you which ones they are. Put it this way... I've been through every bull in the 'classic daughter proven jersey' section of my new catalogue and in my opinion four of them are worth considering. Three of those are related to Manhatten.
Both Ambreed and LIC have told me they are confident in breeding sons from him and distributing them widely. You need to know that some of Manhatten's calves have been born with abnormalities of the hind legs/spine.
I already have his daughters in my herd and if I have to put down such a calf it's one heifer out of forty or fifty, so it's a calculated risk if I use his genetics. Just know what the risk is if you look at these bulls.

Is there a test for the defect to use culling? As I only have 3 girls, it would really hurt worse than 1 out of 40! I suppose not as important in dairy herds as bull calves aren't worth much, but heifers would surely be worth the time to cull for the defect?
Valerie