Herefordcross
Well-known member
Is early weaning a good option when things get dry? say 3-4 month old calves?
Is early weaning an option?
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Bez>
Well-known member
Herefordcross":9kgpg7xq said:
It is always an option. And there are a ton of ways to look at it. But when tough times come - it is time to get really ruthless.
YOUR FIRST LOSS IS GENERALLY YOUR BEST LOSS!!
So take the loss early rather than stringing it along - it only gets more expensive. I give you that tidbit because I did not - and it made things really bad.
As an example - us and the drought that nearly put us down.
First we sold the calves early and gritted our teeth at the lost pounds.
The others started selling and cattle prices dropped.
Then we bought high priced feed with that cash.
Then we sold the cows a few at a time.
Cow prices kept dropping and we got less and less for the animals.
Then we bought high priced feed with that cash.
And finally we had worthless cows and no feed.
We should have sold everything right at the time the drought started - and yes we knew it was going to be bad - put the cash in our jeans and had NO frigging expenses while the drought was on. That way we would have had cash to buy back in when the times got better.
When would I liquidate? When I knew I had to truck feed and cattle prices were dropping. I would toss everything early - bank the money and wait it out.
We would not have bought back in until the feed prices dropped and cattle prices picked up about 10 - 15% from the market bottom. To me that is a fair indicator of rebounding prices. And I would have been able to buy cheaper cows to get back into the game.
You could pick your own indicator - that one has worked for me since I learned my lesson the hard way.
We did not do that - but you had better give that option a fair bit of consideration.
If cost of feed after weaning is an issue - if you keep them - ie: now you need to feed two animals - then sell the calves.
However - if I had the choice - the cash and the time - I could as an expensive alternative - run the cows down by letting the cows feed the calves for as long as I could stand it - then sell the calves and just maintain the cows until good times come again.
Use some of that calf money to help string the old girls along.
This is also a time to toss any marginal cows.
Cannot do it? Get a neighbour to come in and give him all your records and let him cull. I saw that happen before - he tossed a bunch of money losing favourites. Best thing that could have happened to that herd.
Now, if you are a hobby guy with three animals and a semen tank full to the brim with straws, full of plans and in love with Blossom and her calf Summer Dreams - all pasturing in a pen on a 3 1/2 acre ranchette called Big Valley Ranch and Cattle Company - well, it makes no difference - you just want the write off.
If you are running a bunch though and you plan to make money - then you better at least LOOK at what I suggested up top. Good luck.
So you can pick the options I presented or you can go your own way.
As always, the final decision always goes to the owner.
Bez>
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
Weaning early is a drought management tool.
You should also go back and check your cull
Here is a link to some alternate food sources.
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/AN128
Here is info on culling decisions in drought.
Marketing Cull Cows -- Understanding What Determines Value
Under drought conditions it is likely many operations will experience lower conception rates than normal. Feed costs and uncertainty about growing seasons next year make culling of these open cows appear to be the correct management decision. In an average year, cull cows will represent 10% to 20% of gross revenue on a cow-calf operation. Informed marketing, rather than simply selling, can add to income from cull cow and bull sales.
When factors affecting value are understood, culls can be marketed to take advantage of seasonal trends and fluctuations in cow condition. Factors affecting value are sale weight, body condition, muscling, quality and blemishes, all of which can be managed at the ranch to add value to the culls. Cull cow value is based on percent lean meat yield and live weight.
Cows are graded into four broad categories, Canner, Cutter, Utility, and Commercial. Table 1 indicates characteristics associated with each grade. Canners are thin, emaciated cows which have lost muscle mass due to poor nutrition or health. Cutters are thin to moderate in flesh. Little muscle mass has been lost but no excess condition is being carried.
Table 1. Cull Cow Grades and Characteristics
Grade Dressing Percent Lean Content of Trimmings Cow BCS Currenta Mkt. Value $/cwt
Canner 40-46 90-92 1-3 18-25b
Cutter 45-49 88-90 4-5 20-34
Utility
Boning 50-52 78-83 5-9 25-34
Breaking 52-54 76-82 6-9 22-33
Commercial 55-60 70-80 5-9 38-50
a Values reported as of July 24, 1998.
b Cows could be subject to light carcass discounts.
Cows grading Utility carry higher levels of condition. (It is a fat cow grade.) Utility is further divided into Boning and Breaking classifications as well. Cow tenders, strips and top rounds can be, and often are, pulled from cows grading Boning Utility.
Breaking Utility cows have sufficient intramuscular fat (marbling) and muscling for the primals (particularly cuts from the rib and loin) to be used outside the ground meat trade. This greatly increases the carcass value of these cows. Cows that will grade Breaking Utility are very difficult, if not impossible, to determine before processing. It is not practical to manage cows with the goal of producing Breaking Utility grade.
Carcasses grading Commercial are normally from younger cows that fall into C maturity (approximately 42 months old or older). Primal cuts are routinely pulled from these cattle and use in restaurant trade.
Canner cows bring a lower price per pound than Cutter, Utility or Commercial cows. Cutters normally have a higher price per pound than Canner or Utility. Recently, Utility cows are selling for more per pound than Cutter cows. Utility cows bring a price per pound that is usually intermediate to Cutters and Canners, but will often have more total dollar income due to extra live weight. Producers should target cows for the high yielding Cutter or Boning Utility grade.
Caution should be exercised when marketing cows directly to a packing plant. Cows that grade high Cutter and Utility will probably be discounted if they have too much external fat. Packers discount what they classify as fat cows. Unlike processing facilities for feedlot cattle, cow processors sort cow carcasses according to the described criteria. They are not graded by a USDA grader or stamped with the packer grades.
When selling cows directly to the packer another discount to be aware of is for light carcasses. Carcasses weighing less than 350 pounds receive up to $15/cwt discount. The Canner grade is most likely to produce light carcasses. Thin, emaciated cows are discounted at the sale barn to compensate for the probability of light carcasses. For example, a cow with a body condition score (BCS) of 3, weighing 800 pounds and dressing 40%, would hang up a 320-pound carcass. A $15/cwt discount equals $48 per head, or $6/cwt on a live-weight basis. This is in addition to the lower price per pound for Canner cows.
Cows are inspected by USDA inspectors at processing. Condemnations are the result of the USDA inspector, not plant management. Condemnation is due to pathological conditions only, most commonly due to cancerous conditions which have spread out of a localized organ such as an eye.
The most competitive environment for selling cull cows is still the local auction facility. Unless a prearranged price is agreed upon and conditions for determining carcass value are set, it is risky to sell directly to a processing plant.
To maximize value of cull cows, consider some or all of the following changes in management if they appear to be profitable.
1. Add weight to thin cull cows before selling. This is particularly valuable when cows are BCS 3 or lower at culling. High quality forage efficiently replenishes muscle mass on cows. Extremely old cows may not gain as efficiently as younger cows. Target a BCS of 5 for light muscled cows and BCS 5-6 for heavier muscled cows.
2. Cull old cows before they lose their teeth, decline in body condition and fail to breed. Besides having lower cull weight and value, such cows have also weaned lighter calves than the younger cows for probably at least two years.
3. Explore selling directly to a packer on a prearranged price. Caution should be exercised! Bids are more competitive at local auctions. Only a knowledgeable producer should attempt to market good quality cows directly to a packer.
4. Market crippled cattle directly to a packer, without going through usual marketing channels. Cows with other blemishes, such as bad eyes, probably should also be sold directly to a packer.
5. Sell cows before they become fat (BCS 8-9). Fat cows are discounted for low lean yield regardless of their potential to classify as Breaking Utility.
6. Sell cows outside seasonal marketing trends. Cull cow prices are normally lowest in October and November. If possible, consider marketing between February and September when slaughter rates are lower.
7. Consider cull cows as a valuable asset and handle them as such. Bruising is a major problem with cull cows. Most bruises are caused by rough handling and hauling from the time they are sorted at the ranch until they are processed at the cow plant.
8. Always be cautious and concerned about withdrawal times when marketing cows which have been treated with any kind of pesticide, antibiotic or any other chemical compound.
Summary
Sell early before all that is left is a shell of a cow. Try not to market cows that are too thin or too fat. Sell before blemishes become problems. Sell crippled cattle and cows with obvious blemishes directly to the packer.
Eliminate small framed cows, which produce less pounds of saleable product of less value to the ground meat processor, a double loser. Reasonable cow weights should be 1000-1250 pounds. Moderate framed cows (frame score 5) with average muscling in a BCS 5 should weight from 1150-1250 pounds at maturity.
Obviously light muscled, early maturing bulls should not be purchased in the first place. However, cull bulls should be marketed with as much muscling as possible and as little fat as practical.
You should also go back and check your cull
Here is a link to some alternate food sources.
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/AN128
Here is info on culling decisions in drought.
Marketing Cull Cows -- Understanding What Determines Value
Under drought conditions it is likely many operations will experience lower conception rates than normal. Feed costs and uncertainty about growing seasons next year make culling of these open cows appear to be the correct management decision. In an average year, cull cows will represent 10% to 20% of gross revenue on a cow-calf operation. Informed marketing, rather than simply selling, can add to income from cull cow and bull sales.
When factors affecting value are understood, culls can be marketed to take advantage of seasonal trends and fluctuations in cow condition. Factors affecting value are sale weight, body condition, muscling, quality and blemishes, all of which can be managed at the ranch to add value to the culls. Cull cow value is based on percent lean meat yield and live weight.
Cows are graded into four broad categories, Canner, Cutter, Utility, and Commercial. Table 1 indicates characteristics associated with each grade. Canners are thin, emaciated cows which have lost muscle mass due to poor nutrition or health. Cutters are thin to moderate in flesh. Little muscle mass has been lost but no excess condition is being carried.
Table 1. Cull Cow Grades and Characteristics
Grade Dressing Percent Lean Content of Trimmings Cow BCS Currenta Mkt. Value $/cwt
Canner 40-46 90-92 1-3 18-25b
Cutter 45-49 88-90 4-5 20-34
Utility
Boning 50-52 78-83 5-9 25-34
Breaking 52-54 76-82 6-9 22-33
Commercial 55-60 70-80 5-9 38-50
a Values reported as of July 24, 1998.
b Cows could be subject to light carcass discounts.
Cows grading Utility carry higher levels of condition. (It is a fat cow grade.) Utility is further divided into Boning and Breaking classifications as well. Cow tenders, strips and top rounds can be, and often are, pulled from cows grading Boning Utility.
Breaking Utility cows have sufficient intramuscular fat (marbling) and muscling for the primals (particularly cuts from the rib and loin) to be used outside the ground meat trade. This greatly increases the carcass value of these cows. Cows that will grade Breaking Utility are very difficult, if not impossible, to determine before processing. It is not practical to manage cows with the goal of producing Breaking Utility grade.
Carcasses grading Commercial are normally from younger cows that fall into C maturity (approximately 42 months old or older). Primal cuts are routinely pulled from these cattle and use in restaurant trade.
Canner cows bring a lower price per pound than Cutter, Utility or Commercial cows. Cutters normally have a higher price per pound than Canner or Utility. Recently, Utility cows are selling for more per pound than Cutter cows. Utility cows bring a price per pound that is usually intermediate to Cutters and Canners, but will often have more total dollar income due to extra live weight. Producers should target cows for the high yielding Cutter or Boning Utility grade.
Caution should be exercised when marketing cows directly to a packing plant. Cows that grade high Cutter and Utility will probably be discounted if they have too much external fat. Packers discount what they classify as fat cows. Unlike processing facilities for feedlot cattle, cow processors sort cow carcasses according to the described criteria. They are not graded by a USDA grader or stamped with the packer grades.
When selling cows directly to the packer another discount to be aware of is for light carcasses. Carcasses weighing less than 350 pounds receive up to $15/cwt discount. The Canner grade is most likely to produce light carcasses. Thin, emaciated cows are discounted at the sale barn to compensate for the probability of light carcasses. For example, a cow with a body condition score (BCS) of 3, weighing 800 pounds and dressing 40%, would hang up a 320-pound carcass. A $15/cwt discount equals $48 per head, or $6/cwt on a live-weight basis. This is in addition to the lower price per pound for Canner cows.
Cows are inspected by USDA inspectors at processing. Condemnations are the result of the USDA inspector, not plant management. Condemnation is due to pathological conditions only, most commonly due to cancerous conditions which have spread out of a localized organ such as an eye.
The most competitive environment for selling cull cows is still the local auction facility. Unless a prearranged price is agreed upon and conditions for determining carcass value are set, it is risky to sell directly to a processing plant.
To maximize value of cull cows, consider some or all of the following changes in management if they appear to be profitable.
1. Add weight to thin cull cows before selling. This is particularly valuable when cows are BCS 3 or lower at culling. High quality forage efficiently replenishes muscle mass on cows. Extremely old cows may not gain as efficiently as younger cows. Target a BCS of 5 for light muscled cows and BCS 5-6 for heavier muscled cows.
2. Cull old cows before they lose their teeth, decline in body condition and fail to breed. Besides having lower cull weight and value, such cows have also weaned lighter calves than the younger cows for probably at least two years.
3. Explore selling directly to a packer on a prearranged price. Caution should be exercised! Bids are more competitive at local auctions. Only a knowledgeable producer should attempt to market good quality cows directly to a packer.
4. Market crippled cattle directly to a packer, without going through usual marketing channels. Cows with other blemishes, such as bad eyes, probably should also be sold directly to a packer.
5. Sell cows before they become fat (BCS 8-9). Fat cows are discounted for low lean yield regardless of their potential to classify as Breaking Utility.
6. Sell cows outside seasonal marketing trends. Cull cow prices are normally lowest in October and November. If possible, consider marketing between February and September when slaughter rates are lower.
7. Consider cull cows as a valuable asset and handle them as such. Bruising is a major problem with cull cows. Most bruises are caused by rough handling and hauling from the time they are sorted at the ranch until they are processed at the cow plant.
8. Always be cautious and concerned about withdrawal times when marketing cows which have been treated with any kind of pesticide, antibiotic or any other chemical compound.
Summary
Sell early before all that is left is a shell of a cow. Try not to market cows that are too thin or too fat. Sell before blemishes become problems. Sell crippled cattle and cows with obvious blemishes directly to the packer.
Eliminate small framed cows, which produce less pounds of saleable product of less value to the ground meat processor, a double loser. Reasonable cow weights should be 1000-1250 pounds. Moderate framed cows (frame score 5) with average muscling in a BCS 5 should weight from 1150-1250 pounds at maturity.
Obviously light muscled, early maturing bulls should not be purchased in the first place. However, cull bulls should be marketed with as much muscling as possible and as little fat as practical.
jkwilson
Well-known member
I think it's the best solution to dealing with short grass. We culled several cows this summer with 4-5 month calves to get them off the grass. Cows were going anyway, we just moved up the departure date.
Bez's advice sounds like some hard-earned wisdom.
Bez's advice sounds like some hard-earned wisdom.
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
Here is some more stategies I had in my reference stuff.
It is better to wean early and cull during a drought early than to be robbed later when everyone is dumping cattle.
http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/drought/ds-8-97.htm
It is better to wean early and cull during a drought early than to be robbed later when everyone is dumping cattle.
http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/drought/ds-8-97.htm
Susie David
Well-known member
This thread is especially interesting since we're experiencing a drought up here and the winter feed availability looks real pricey. My usual hay supplier has loaded his barns and is not selling any first cut alfalfa until Sept. I did manage to have him drop off a bale wagon load...his last one...everyone is waiting to see what the prices will be doing.
There isn't going to be a second cut this year and trucked in hay will be expensive.
Cows and calves are bred and in great shape and if we can put up nine months of feed we won't have to cull any more than we already have. Thought that this past year but went and bought other folk's good culls in winter and a bull so underestimated our consumption rate and was paying real money for trucked in hay to get through calving.
Thanks for the insight...Dave Mc
There isn't going to be a second cut this year and trucked in hay will be expensive.
Cows and calves are bred and in great shape and if we can put up nine months of feed we won't have to cull any more than we already have. Thought that this past year but went and bought other folk's good culls in winter and a bull so underestimated our consumption rate and was paying real money for trucked in hay to get through calving.
Thanks for the insight...Dave Mc
