Is castration necessary?

[Deepsouth]

In the tetanus and banding thread Bez made a post stating that he no longer castrated his calfs but sold them whole right off the cow. I didn't want to hijack the thread so I'm starting a new thread.
Bez's post got me to thinking about something that happened to me. I sold a group of steers last fall and when I got my sale report from the yard it showed that I had sold one bull. I had banded them and figured I must have missed a nut on one but was surprised that they caught it at the yard. So I wondered if they got one of mine mixed up with something else but I don't see how I watched them put the stickers on them all. Well what ever happened didn't bother me because the bull brought just as much as the steers no dockage at all that I could tell. They averaged 498 lbs.
So is castration necessary or is it something that we do just because we have always been told to do it and we just never asked why. As Bez pointed out I sure can see a lot of positives in not castrating.

 

[M5farm]

I think it a management principle for each operation. If you sell when you wean there is no reason to castrate. If you finish your weaners you will probably castrate because you will have heifers in the group your finishing. In my market there is no discernible difference in sale price.

 

[Brute 23]

In my market I have not seen enough difference to justify the expense of doing it. If you sell at special sales, direct, a lot of volume, ect... it may.

 

[fitz]

m":3ue96m3h]I think it a management principle for each operation.[/u] If you sell when you wean there is no reason to castrate. If you finish your weaners you will probably castrate because you will have heifers in the group your finishing. In my market there is no discernible difference in sale price.

That's a lot of it. I mostly band all of mine early. My bull goes in with the cows when the calves are coming 3-4 months old. During the course of the breeding season sometimes the bull spends time slinging bull calves out of his way.
Checked the two markets closest to me for the week and on 5-6 cwt. there was a average difference of 7.50 per hundred. So a 550# steer would have been a little over 40.00 higher.

fitz

 

[Bigfoot]

The difference in price between bulls, and steers is slight. Sometimes that difference is a little more noticeable. One could argue that a bull calf will way a tad bit more, making up for the difference. I always have a few that get through to the sale without being banded. When you have one bull, running with several cows, sometimes you miss seeing a cow in heat even though she got bred. Having a few 500 pound bull calves in the field makes it a little more obvious. That's one of the few up sides I see.

 

[NC Liz 2]

In my area here is how it works out.
In my case, as a cow/calf operation that breeds year round, and weaning between 6 -700 lbs I am better off financially banding/castrating.
By banding/castrating not only am I better off financially but I avoid the possibility of sibling breeding and possible injury to bull calves by the herd bull.

Actual sale prices on 1 – 14 – 2014

500 - 549 lb. Steers 191.00
500 - 549 lb. Bulls 190.00
For a difference of $1.00 per hundred or $5.00 per head

600 - 699 lb. Steers177.00
600 - 699 lb. Bulls 163.00
For a difference of $ 14.00 per hundred or $84.00 per head.

IMO, in my area, if you wean on wheels below 600 lbs, there is no advantage to banding/castrating.
Liz

 

[cross_7]

IMO opinion if you don't work your calves(cut, vaccinate, wean) you're a poor cattleman and not helping your fellow cattleman(stocker/feeder guys)
Right now with calf numbers being down bulls aren't being discounted like they used to, but that aint always the case.
We should do everything we can to deliver a quality product and if we can reduce antibiotic use, reduce lesions and bruising from doctoring we should and help the cattle industry as a whole

Again that's JMO and I've heard all the excuses about how it doesn't benefit or pay anymore and so on

 

[NC Liz 2]

IMO opinion if you don't work your calves(cut, vaccinate, wean) you're a poor cattleman and not helping your fellow cattleman(stocker/feeder guys)

There is some truth in that statement but the numbers don't show it to be profitable.
In my area buyers don't usually pay extra for preconditioned steers, even when they are certified to be preconditioned.

Actual sale price on 1- 16 – 2014 ( precondition sale )
Preconditioned: --------------------------------------------- NOT preconditioned: 1 – 14 - 2014
500 – 599 lbs. Steers $ 191.50 per hundred -------------500 - 549 lb. Steers 191.00
600 - 700 lb. Steer $170.50 per hundred -------------600 - 699 lb. Steers177.00
Liz

 

[cross_7]

IMO opinion if you don't work your calves(cut, vaccinate, wean) you're a poor cattleman and not helping your fellow cattleman(stocker/feeder guys)

There is some truth in that statement but the numbers don't show it to be profitable.
In my area buyers don't usually pay extra for preconditioned steers, even when they are certified to be preconditioned.

Actual sale price on 1- 16 – 2014 ( precondition sale )
Preconditioned: NOT preconditioned: 1 – 14 - 2014
500 – 599 lbs. Steers $ 191.50 per hundred -------------500 - 549 lb. Steers 191.00
600 - 700 lb. Steer $170.50 per hundred -------------600 - 699 lb. Steers177.00
Liz

As I said that's my opinion and you can't justify to me
That makes you a poor cattleman imo,
Also if your going to quote me take the entire quote
Cross_7 wrote
We should do everything we can to deliver a quality product and if we can reduce antibiotic use, reduce lesions and bruising from doctoring we should and help the cattle industry as a whole

 

[dun]

As in everything else in the business there are way to many variables for there to be a hard and fast rule. At our local salebarn bulls bring about 3 sense less then steers. At the proconditioned sales, castration is one of the requirements but the precon calves will bring a dime to 15 cents more CWT then the equivilent calves not precon at the regular sale. I can;t tell for sure but the Pfizer precon certification seems to be worth another penny or 2 cwt and it doesn;t cost anything to enroll them. If we go all the way and get the state tag they don;t appear to bring anymore then the normal price for precon calves. That said, it may be different at the sale barn 40 miles either side of us.

 

[denvermartinfarms]

Here at our sale it can cost you up close to 15cwt on a 5wt and more on a 6wt, under 500lbs you still take a loss but maybe only 5cwt. I know I can't afford to sell bulls.

Also here if you say they have had shots that helps, having papers saying they've had shots doesn't add anymore.

 

[NC Liz 2]

Could you explain to me, by not " cut, vaccinate, wean " how does that make me a poor cattleman when that is what the buyers want so they can do their own banding or cutting, vaccination and weaning on the product of their choice ?

Liz

 

[snake67]

In the tetanus and banding thread Bez made a post stating that he no longer castrated his calfs but sold them whole right off the cow. I didn't want to hijack the thread so I'm starting a new thread.
Bez's post got me to thinking about something that happened to me. I sold a group of steers last fall and when I got my sale report from the yard it showed that I had sold one bull. I had banded them and figured I must have missed a nut on one but was surprised that they caught it at the yard. So I wondered if they got one of mine mixed up with something else but I don't see how I watched them put the stickers on them all. Well what ever happened didn't bother me because the bull brought just as much as the steers no dockage at all that I could tell. They averaged 498 lbs.
So is castration necessary or is it something that we do just because we have always been told to do it and we just never asked why. As Bez pointed out I sure can see a lot of positives in not castrating.

Deepsouth

As with anything - in a business - money talks.

If you are not going to see a difference in your receiving price then why throw money away?

If you are going to see a difference to the positive then obvioulsy it is worth the time and money to do the work.

All the feed lots here will work the incoming - even if the anmals they receive come with a vet certificate detailing the work done to them. That means the price is the price is the price.

If we received a premium we would do the work.

Because we do not, we do not spend the money.

Thousands of cattle go right off the cow into the feed lot process here. We are simply one of many.

It might not be the same where you are.

Never forget - profit matters. We do not do it for fun - we do it for the money - otherwise I could just grow corn.

My best to you

Bez

 

[denvermartinfarms]

Could you explain to me, by not " cut, vaccinate, wean " how does that make me a poor cattleman when that is what the buyers want so they can do their own banding or cutting, vaccination and weaning on the product of their choice ?

Liz

Can I see a market report where unweaned, un vaccinated, and un cut or banded calves brought more than calves that had bred worked and weaned?

 

[cross_7]

Could you explain to me, by not " cut, vaccinate, wean " how does that make me a poor cattleman when that is what the buyers want so they can do their own banding or cutting, vaccination and weaning on the product of their choice ?

Liz

You can do it your way and I mine
We both have both an opinion
Nobody says we have to agree or to argue who's right or wrong

 

[ANAZAZI]

Can I see a market report where unweaned, un vaccinated, and un cut or banded calves brought more than calves that had bred worked and weaned?

If like in Bez's case the prize per weight is the same they will work the calves anyway; not only does it save time and money to not do it yourself, but also uncastrated bull typically weigh 5% more at weaning than do steers.

 

[NC Liz 2]

Denvermartinfarms

Can I see a market report where unweaned, un vaccinated, and un cut or banded calves brought more than calves that had bred worked and weaned?

Would that not be bull calves weaned on wheels?
The best I can do is to give you a non-preconditioned and a preconditioned sale price, as I did above which includes " unweaned, un vaccinated, and un cut or banded calves.
If they are " un cut or banded " then they are not preconditioned are they? So therefor they are not preconditioned, as they are bulls.
Am I not understanding what you are asking?
Liz

 

[OakCreekRanch]

In our part, it's a necessary to castrate our bull calves. These boys will be busy chasing the heiferettes and fighting with their rivals. By doing it, they will injure themselves and their penmates. They also will lost some weight and possibly toughen the beef. Sounds like my old high school!

 

[skeeter swatter]

Here it pays on anything over 350-400 lbs. the bigger they are the more it pays.
Check your local market and find out if it pays for you.

 

[highgrit]

The Beef Quality Assurance program, and the UGA Master Cattlemen's Program both say banding or cutting of bulls needs to be done. We try and do what's best for the cattle market, even though it doesn't pay more most of the time. We're going to do the best that we can, I try not to half azz stuff just to save a buck or to. Some folks will do anything for a buck. Myself, I am going to waste money giving vaccines and castrating our bull calves. I think that's what the cattle buyers want, and maybe someday we will get a little more.