Is castration necessary?

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highgrit":37y5qo4b said:
The Beef Quality Assurance program, and the UGA Master Cattlemen's Program both say banding or cutting of bulls needs to be done. We try and do what's best for the cattle market, even though it doesn't pay more most of the time. We're going to do the best that we can, I try not to half azz stuff just to save a buck or to. Some folks will do anything for a buck. Myself, I am going to waste money giving vaccines and castrating our bull calves. I think that's what the cattle buyers want, and maybe someday we will get a little more.

I agree :clap:
I get tired of hearing same ol song "it doesn't pay me so I aint going to do it" it's nice to hear someone that thinks like I do
 
I completely understand where cross is coming from. We should try and produce the best product that we can, I can't argue with that. But cross when you say I should do it to help the cattle industry as a whole I have a problem. My problem is not so much as trying to help the reputation of the cattle industry or the quality of the product. My problem is if I do the work but I am not compensated for that work not to mention the risk that's involved how is that helping the cattle industry. Afterall I am a part of that industry and and if I'm not being compensated than how's that helping the industry. I have a very small cattle business and I do consider it a business not a hobby and I can tell you that the buyers of my product work off much, much higher volumes then I do. To lose or have problems with one single steer could be the difference in making a profit or just breaking even for me. Those who buy from me and handle a much larger volume certainly feel it if they lose one or have to put a lot into one that has problems but because of the volume they handle they have a better chance of overcoming that loss than I do. So for them not to pay me to take a risk they not helping the cattle industry either.

A tetanus shot is cheap and castration isn't that much work but I worry for a month after banding and Look them over real close every day because I can't afford to lose one or spend more than he's worth trying to save him. If I'm not going to be payed for that risk then why take it? Yet I still feel an obligation to produce a quality product for my buyer as well as for the industry itself whatever that takes as long as I can see a profit. When that profit goes away I will to and many more like me and that surely doesn't help the cattle industry at all.



I think Cross did hit on the answer to my question in this statement.

cross_7":2ih9p2of said:
Right now with calf numbers being down bulls aren't being discounted like they used to, but that aint always the case.


I grew up on a 60 to 70 head cattle farm and worked cows for my daddy, 6uncle and neighbors but never learned or cared I guess about the business side of it. I was away from cattle for 25 years and just recently decided to give it a try. I have a lot to learn. Historically was there a greater variance between the price of a bull and steer and that difference as narrowed lately because of the declining cattle numbers or is the variance pretty much the same as it's always been and they cut the bulls because they left the herd bulls on the cows year round and had calves dropping all year and had a much greater spread in age of the calf?
 
Deepsouth":19t9a87n said:
I completely understand where cross is coming from. We should try and produce the best product that we can, I can't argue with that. But cross when you say I should do it to help the cattle industry as a whole I have a problem. My problem is not so much as trying to help the reputation of the cattle industry or the quality of the product. My problem is if I do the work but I am not compensated for that work not to mention the risk that's involved how is that helping the cattle industry. Afterall I am a part of that industry and and if I'm not being compensated than how's that helping the industry. I have a very small cattle business and I do consider it a business not a hobby and I can tell you that the buyers of my product work off much, much higher volumes then I do. To lose or have problems with one single steer could be the difference in making a profit or just breaking even for me. Those who buy from me and handle a much larger volume certainly feel it if they lose one or have to put a lot into one that has problems but because of the volume they handle they have a better chance of overcoming that loss than I do. So for them not to pay me to take a risk they not helping the cattle industry either.

A tetanus shot is cheap and castration isn't that much work but I worry for a month after banding and Look them over real close every day because I can't afford to lose one or spend more than he's worth trying to save him. If I'm not going to be payed for that risk then why take it? Yet I still feel an obligation to produce a quality product for my buyer as well as for the industry itself whatever that takes as long as I can see a profit. When that profit goes away I will to and many more like me and that surely doesn't help the cattle industry at all.



I think Cross did hit on the answer to my question in this statement.

cross_7":19t9a87n said:
Right now with calf numbers being down bulls aren't being discounted like they used to, but that aint always the case.


I grew up on a 60 to 70 head cattle farm and worked cows for my daddy, 6uncle and neighbors but never learned or cared I guess about the business side of it. I was away from cattle for 25 years and just recently decided to give it a try. I have a lot to learn. Historically was there a greater variance between the price of a bull and steer and that difference as narrowed lately because of the declining cattle numbers or is the variance pretty much the same as it's always been and they cut the bulls because they left the herd bulls on the cows year round and had calves dropping all year and had a much greater spread in age of the calf?

As a whole I mean its a trickle down affect, as you stated you can't take losing one. Well the stocker/feeder can't either.
The same goes for not vaccinating therefore hurting the next guy
All those problems are factored in when buying cattle
Ever noticed how the auctioneer will say these are so and so cattle weaned 60 days and two rounds of vaccines and watch them top the sale
They know there is less risk involved with those cattle
The antibiotics used to treat the cattle and the resistant bugs because of it is a big problem
The lesion from the shots even now given in the neck is a problem. The bruising from being run through the chute. Cattle not preforming due to health problems are a problem.
Most of those problems would be minimized if the cow/calf guy used better management practices
Therefore causing less of a problem for the industry
But that's just my thoughts on it
Everyone has the right to do as they choose
 
We band them, in our market it more than pays to do so....For $75-$100/ head on the lighter weights and $150-$300 on the heavier weights you'd almost have to be nuts to leave them... But vaccinating, well, you only do that for yourself. You sure don't get paid to do it by the buyers up here....

Here's a link to one of the later sales this fall.
http://www.hls.ca/Market_Reports/Presor ... qua-MJ.htm
 
Half the time the local barn here can't even call them a steer or bull correctly when they run through. Lol
 
I think about like cross 7 on this one. I will haul an oddball bull calf in every once in a while that we missed when we branded but every branded calf will be weaned at least 30 days and have two rounds of shots when they sell and all the bull calves will be cut. There is a solid premium here for weaned, vaccinated, steer calves but I'd do it anyway. Even if you don't see a premium on the check stub, there's one built in when you sell healthy calves that are ready to turn out because whoever is buying your calves is going to remember every one that he loses. If you want him to buy your calves next year you need to do your part in getting them healthy before they get to him.
 
Red Bull Breeder":17yu4wq5 said:
Hey Cross you gonna run your sales route for free?? Most buyers are set to receive any and ever kind of calf they get.

There are buyers that will buy them but they factor in the discount because of the risk
Lots of people like calves that are mismanaged and buy them at a discount and do well with them
I guess that is why they have special stocker calf sales and the vac programs so the guys that do it get paid for their effort and for the buyers looking for quality calves have a source.
Everybody has a different way of doing things and it works for everybody
 
That may be true in your area. Not always the case else where. When it pays to cut calves I will, when it does not pay I don't. The folks that I sell to don't care one way or the other because ever calf is going to be worked when it gets where it is going. Doesn't matter if they had all the shots or not they still get worked. I would be willing to bet my calves are as good as yours. Time is money, I charge for my time.
 
Red Bull Breeder":1efu2434 said:
That may be true in your area. Not always the case else where. When it pays to cut calves I will, when it does not pay I don't. The folks that I sell to don't care one way or the other because ever calf is going to be worked when it gets where it is going. Doesn't matter if they had all the shots or not they still get worked. I would be willing to bet my calves are as good as yours. Time is money, I charge for my time.

I don't doubt the quality of your calves nor did intent it that way
I see your thoughts on it, same as the man I work for " if we aren't making money we're not doing it"
I on the other hand am going to work'em(cut'em, vaccinate)either way.
I have in the past sold bull calves that wern't weaned( but were vaccinated) and I'm sure I'll do it again, but given the choice I'm going to do the very best job I can whether it pays anymore or not
People have different ideas and options but as long as it works then it doesn't matter
 
randiliana":3sfgck22 said:
We band them, in our market it more than pays to do so....For $75-$100/ head on the lighter weights and $150-$300 on the heavier weights you'd almost have to be nuts to leave them... But vaccinating, well, you only do that for yourself. You sure don't get paid to do it by the buyers up here....

Here's a link to one of the later sales this fall.
http://www.hls.ca/Market_Reports/Presor ... qua-MJ.htm
I do not get quite these numbers. I do make enough to make it worth while. I want good, low risk calves going through the sale.
It just makes sense to me to cut, vaccinate and wean calves at home. I short wean (45 days) and try to long wean (90 days) our calves.
We average $90 per head over the sale barn average.
The sale we use is well run. We have sold there for years. They will make sure the calves get the props for being cut, vaccinated and weaned. The same buyers usually buy our calves.
 
Tim/South":mwehtyan said:
randiliana":mwehtyan said:
We band them, in our market it more than pays to do so....For $75-$100/ head on the lighter weights and $150-$300 on the heavier weights you'd almost have to be nuts to leave them... But vaccinating, well, you only do that for yourself. You sure don't get paid to do it by the buyers up here....

Here's a link to one of the later sales this fall.
http://www.hls.ca/Market_Reports/Presor ... qua-MJ.htm
I do not get quite these numbers. I do make enough to make it worth while. I want good, low risk calves going through the sale.
It just makes sense to me to cut, vaccinate and wean calves at home. I short wean (45 days) and try to long wean (90 days) our calves.
We average $90 per head over the sale barn average.
The sale we use is well run. We have sold there for years. They will make sure the calves get the props for being cut, vaccinated and weaned. The same buyers usually buy our calves.


Tim

Sales in my part of Canada are usually very different from the US of A

Even big sales often only have one or two order buyers and a few singleton buyers - and if there is a good selection of animals available there will be more than a little collusion between the two or three buyers in the front row - why compete too hard when you can agree to take this one and I will take the next one? Do not laugh - I have done a little order buying and I did it as well - so I know it happens - because I have done it. Cannot do that when there are 10 or more buyers - then it gets competitive.

I believe I will be at the local sale barn on Monday - shipping one heifer calf - horned - at about 700 pounds as we are a bit short on cash.

I have a choice of two sale barns to chose from unless I want to haul about 5 hours. One is an hour away and the other is two hours away - neither will be a large sale and I would be surprised to see many buyers at either as they are a bit out of the way.

Draw a circle with a 5 hour driving range around your place or most others in the US of A and for the most part - with very few exceptions - you have a far greater choice or places to sell.

As I live on the border with Quebec I have that circle further reduced as it is very difficult for me to sell those animals in my neighboring province - which is another story unto itself. So I now only have half that circle.

Aaron may have even less selection.

I have seen a big sale have only 4 buyers up front and about 100 people looking on.

I have been to many sale barns in the US of A - most are bigger right from the start. It is sheer population - your country is a bit more than ten times our population despite the fact we are bigger area wise than you are - to put it into perspective Canada has a population that is similar to that of California

While our prices are fairly good - the selection of places to sell is not there - at least for me here in my area. I could never dream of getting the pricing you guys get for most of your animals.

Many people who come on here have no clue how difficult it is to market animals in many parts of Canada. While it is difficult here, the Maritimes take an even bigger hit due to being very regionalized and far from any real markets.

And I see folks in your part of the world willing to drive across three states for one animal.

Mind you our fuel costs are probably running about $5.40 per US gallon right now with straight across volume comparisom - add in the exchange and it is more like $5.60 soon to be closing on $6.00 I suspect.

There are many factors that we deal with here that you guys do not - and one of them is serious lack of competition - last year three more sale barns and two slaughter houses shut down in my area - by that I mean within 6 - 7 hours hauling time. Remember we are big here - Texas is a pizz ant piece of ground compared to many if not most provinces. You could probably put the best half of the US of A into Ontario and Quebec alone.

So while I may have caused a schitte storm of activity with my comments I can tell you for sure that around here it is far better to have the buyers and trucks show up at your farm than deliver and take the chances. Transport costs alone often eat up any potential difference you folks talk about unless you are selling by the pot load and even then it is a fairly big chunk of change.

Totally different world up here - at least in my area - some of those differences are good and some are bad - but is is indeed a different place to raise and market animals - and from some of the comments I read here I see that this is not totally clear in many peoples heads.

You want to make it up here in my part of the world you need a sharp pencil and a true understanding of TOTAL costs compared to pricing received.

We are slowly being driven out of the animal game and into the grain game as the land here is now worth more than $15K per acre and cattle and sheep simply do not pay their way - you would have to drive a long way in any direction to find more than 5 other beef producers of any size in this part of the world - the money is in cash cropping and the work is far easier in the long run.

Hope that helps a bit - best to all.

Cheers

Bez
 
I live in an area where we get docked if it's left as a bull. The feedlots then have to do it and because of the stress and weight loss on the animal having to be processed at receiving, they pass that loss on to us.

I've seen a few feed lots cut their stockers. Not a pretty sight. Especially if they have to dehorn and vaccinate, re tag, and keep them from getting sick. Takes several weeks to recover, which means weight loss, and then weight gain back to purchase weight before they start gaining. This means, losses up front before they start gaining post purchase weight.
I think I would rather band them at birth. A few hours discomfort, a quick rebound, and it's done. It's easy if you can count to two.
 
cross_7":2eolngjs said:
highgrit":2eolngjs said:
The Beef Quality Assurance program, and the UGA Master Cattlemen's Program both say banding or cutting of bulls needs to be done. We try and do what's best for the cattle market, even though it doesn't pay more most of the time. We're going to do the best that we can, I try not to half azz stuff just to save a buck or to. Some folks will do anything for a buck. Myself, I am going to waste money giving vaccines and castrating our bull calves. I think that's what the cattle buyers want, and maybe someday we will get a little more.

I agree :clap:
I get tired of hearing same ol song "it doesn't pay me so I aint going to do it" it's nice to hear someone that thinks like I do
I second this one! :D
 
cross_7":h28r4txp said:
IMO opinion if you don't work your calves(cut, vaccinate, wean) you're a poor cattleman and not helping your fellow cattleman(stocker/feeder guys)
Right now with calf numbers being down bulls aren't being discounted like they used to, but that aint always the case.
We should do everything we can to deliver a quality product and if we can reduce antibiotic use, reduce lesions and bruising from doctoring we should and help the cattle industry as a whole

Again that's JMO and I've heard all the excuses about how it doesn't benefit or pay anymore and so on
1. I agree with this statement in its entirety.
2. At least out west, we see a significant discount for bulls.
3. Watch the video sales, essentially all the loads of male calves are castrated. Put a load of 5 weight unvaccinated, uncut calves on there and see how you get along.
 
cross_7":1xazk8kx said:
IMO opinion if you don't work your calves(cut, vaccinate, wean) you're a poor cattleman and not helping your fellow cattleman(stocker/feeder guys)
Right now with calf numbers being down bulls aren't being discounted like they used to, but that aint always the case.
We should do everything we can to deliver a quality product and if we can reduce antibiotic use, reduce lesions and bruising from doctoring we should and help the cattle industry as a whole

Again that's JMO and I've heard all the excuses about how it doesn't benefit or pay anymore and so on



I was wrong to say your a poor cattleman, that was judgmental and presumptuous of me
I have never been in your shoes or seen your operation so the statement was unfounded
On here your talking to faceless group and I tend to forget I'm talking to real people
I was wrong and my apologizes for the ones I offended
 
cross_7":203tlvav said:
cross_7":203tlvav said:
IMO opinion if you don't work your calves(cut, vaccinate, wean) you're a poor cattleman and not helping your fellow cattleman(stocker/feeder guys)
Right now with calf numbers being down bulls aren't being discounted like they used to, but that aint always the case.
We should do everything we can to deliver a quality product and if we can reduce antibiotic use, reduce lesions and bruising from doctoring we should and help the cattle industry as a whole

Again that's JMO and I've heard all the excuses about how it doesn't benefit or pay anymore and so on



I was wrong to say your a poor cattleman, that was judgmental and presumptuous of me
I have never been in your shoes or seen your operation so the statement was unfounded
On here your talking to faceless group and I tend to forget I'm talking to real people
I was wrong and my apologizes for the ones I offended
Apology excepted cowboy! :D Just don't let it happen again. :cowboy:
 
rockridgecattle":2efs3hri said:
I live in an area where we get docked if it's left as a bull. The feedlots then have to do it and because of the stress and weight loss on the animal having to be processed at receiving, they pass that loss on to us.

I've seen a few feed lots cut their stockers. Not a pretty sight. Especially if they have to dehorn and vaccinate, re tag, and keep them from getting sick. Takes several weeks to recover, which means weight loss, and then weight gain back to purchase weight before they start gaining. This means, losses up front before they start gaining post purchase weight.
I think I would rather band them at birth. A few hours discomfort, a quick rebound, and it's done. It's easy if you can count to two.

I like this. There's plenty of stress in calves heading to feedlots even without facing castration. Which stress lowers immunity and is a major factor in pneumonia, etc, which requires antibiotics, which leads to resistance, and an image problem for consumers.

What I don't get is why any buyer would pay the same for a bull calf that they have to put through this stress and weight loss, and possible complications or illness. Are there any buyers on here?

Too bad we don't have more buyers explaining why they pay what they do.
 
I've never sold a bull calf. Even if we miss some, I get em in the next week and do it. Why? I have just always done it that way and it used to pay. I have no idea I've it paid last year or the year before that because I didn't look. I ain't apposed or nothin. That's just the way grandpa and pops said we do it. Grandpa is gone so I guess I'll just keep doing it that way till they pay me for nuts. If we were better marketers there would be a huge demand for calf fries and we'd get a $20/head premium for nuts.
 
rockridgecattle":2iebljli said:
I live in an area where we get docked if it's left as a bull. The feedlots then have to do it and because of the stress and weight loss on the animal having to be processed at receiving, they pass that loss on to us.

I've seen a few feed lots cut their stockers. Not a pretty sight. Especially if they have to dehorn and vaccinate, re tag, and keep them from getting sick. Takes several weeks to recover, which means weight loss, and then weight gain back to purchase weight before they start gaining. This means, losses up front before they start gaining post purchase weight.
I think I would rather band them at birth. A few hours discomfort, a quick rebound, and it's done. It's easy if you can count to two.
I agree.
We usually cut at 400 - 450 lbs. The calves come out of the squeeze and go straight to a holding pen with feed and water. They eat and drink all they want, then are turned out. I am not sure, or unsure if they go off feed when cut at a stocker operation.
Weaning is the most stressful time in a calves life. If I take the calves off their momma to a different pasture like we did in the old days then we have a lot of shrink. Order buyers know this as well. That fat plump soft calf will look like death warmed over in two weeks if weaned on the way to the sale.
Even with fence weaning we still have some shrink though the calves are on free choice creep and hay. That shrink is not all bad. The calves are transitioning from soft calves the hard calves. Order buyers know this. Those hard calves will gain back in a hurry. Their only stress is being hauled and a new environment.
 

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