houstoncutter
Well-known member
branguscowgirl":2e8i2jcz said:I second this one!cross_7":2e8i2jcz said:
Saints preserve us, still believing in leprecahauns!!!!
Is castration necessary?
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Saints preserve us, still believing in leprecahauns!!!!
DLD
Well-known member
When the market's hot and demand is high, castrating, dehorning and weaning sometimes doesn't pay. It's extremely rare that those calves bring as much as weaned and worked calves of the same size and quality, but the difference may sometimes be small enough to make it not worthwhile for a producer. However, over time, I really believe it's most profitable to sell them weaned and worked.
If you have a reputation for selling calves that are weaned and worked and ready to go back to the country and make money, it's worth protecting, IMHO.
On another note, the OP said he was pretty sure all the calves were steers, and the one that was marked as a bull brought as much as the steers. Sale barns aren't infallible either - there's a very good chance that either the clerk wrote it down wrong, or someone in the office entered it wrong. Most programs use a numerical code for sex (one for color, too). It's awfully easy to accidentally hit the wrong key, and then the paperwork's wrong. Not saying for sure that happened here, but it's sure a possibility. Especially if he watched them sell and nobody called it in the ring.
If you have a reputation for selling calves that are weaned and worked and ready to go back to the country and make money, it's worth protecting, IMHO.
On another note, the OP said he was pretty sure all the calves were steers, and the one that was marked as a bull brought as much as the steers. Sale barns aren't infallible either - there's a very good chance that either the clerk wrote it down wrong, or someone in the office entered it wrong. Most programs use a numerical code for sex (one for color, too). It's awfully easy to accidentally hit the wrong key, and then the paperwork's wrong. Not saying for sure that happened here, but it's sure a possibility. Especially if he watched them sell and nobody called it in the ring.
Here is a pretty good article on this subject.
Don't forget to read the comments at the bottom.
Liz
http://agricultureproud.com/2011/05/12/ ... te-cattle/
Don't forget to read the comments at the bottom.
Liz
http://agricultureproud.com/2011/05/12/ ... te-cattle/
The Im better than you attitude is just non-sense. Its simple business. Id rather them dock me the $5 a head or what ever for them to assume the risk. Its a mutually agree upon deal.
I produce a product. It goes to auction where feedlots or who ever can name their price for the product. No one holds a gun to their head and makes them purchase bulls. How does it get any more fair than that?
I produce a product. It goes to auction where feedlots or who ever can name their price for the product. No one holds a gun to their head and makes them purchase bulls. How does it get any more fair than that?
BC
Well-known member
Here in East Texas, if you sell a 400 lb or lighter bull calf there is no discount for being a bull. At 500 lbs there is a $5 to $8 difference between steers and bulls. At 600+ lbs the discount gets bigger and at 700+ lbs it is around $15 per cwt.
I was a county agent for almost 30 years and devoted a lot of time teaching people how to make their calves more valuable or grow better forage. One way to add value was to make their bull calves into steers. For the past 6 or 7 years I have been order buying stocker calves a couple of days a week. One of the posters on this thread said that he didn't get a "premium" for doing certain animal husbandry practices. The word "premium" is not in a cattle buyer's vocabulary, but "discount" is. One of the men I buy for told me when I was a county agent to quit telling people to cut their calves, that is how he made a living - straightening out others mismanagement. I hope that enough of you don't feel you get paid enough to work your calves, because I have customers who will buy your calves at a figure that allows them to add value to the calves and cover the added risk they assume.
I was a county agent for almost 30 years and devoted a lot of time teaching people how to make their calves more valuable or grow better forage. One way to add value was to make their bull calves into steers. For the past 6 or 7 years I have been order buying stocker calves a couple of days a week. One of the posters on this thread said that he didn't get a "premium" for doing certain animal husbandry practices. The word "premium" is not in a cattle buyer's vocabulary, but "discount" is. One of the men I buy for told me when I was a county agent to quit telling people to cut their calves, that is how he made a living - straightening out others mismanagement. I hope that enough of you don't feel you get paid enough to work your calves, because I have customers who will buy your calves at a figure that allows them to add value to the calves and cover the added risk they assume.
branguscowgirl
Well-known member
Well said, thank you BC!BC":3ma465rj said:
BC":1m6gaibl said:
My time is worth more than what the guy you work for charges to castrate. Its like me paying him to do what is not economical for me to do. Plus, he asssumes the risk of some thing going wrong.
If you take all the dollars to sink your females, move bulls, work the calves 2... maybe 3 times, facilities to cut, time to cut, and the risk involved... $5-8 per head is a deal for me.
Im glad he's making money... but its not like he is out smarting any one. :lol: He's like the guy that changes my oil, its a lot easier to let him do it so I can worry about other things.
cross_7
Well-known member
Brute 23":2ga1f249 said:
Not me I ain't got any million dollar deals in the works so I guess my time ain't worth much
I guess if I did I wouldn't waste my time piddling with calves either
Don't play games with my words. my point is that every operation is different. if it works for you and puts more money in your pocket, great. you just can't make blanket statements about what is best for everyone. plus, there are a lot of great cattlemen and women that are broke or no longer in the game because they understood the cattle part but not the business part.
BC
Well-known member
Brute 23":2rxiv8bt said:
I think you missed the dollar amount. It was $5 to $15 per 100 lbs not per head. I agree that time has a value and you need the physical ability to work your calves. Because of a bad disc in my back, I paid some day cowboys to work my calves, it came out to about $6 per head for castrating and vaccines. I figured that I made about $10 per cwt by making steers out of my bull calves. My male calves averaged 596 this year so I figured it cost me $1 per cwt ($6 per head) to make an additional $54.00 per head. Was it worth it? It was to me.
We don't see that amount of difference on bulls and steers here.
i'm not just throwing theories out. I have literally weaned A group of calves, Cut half of them, put them out on grass and then sold them later on. it was pennies difference per lb. Did it twice and gave up.
i'm hoping to ideas but that is what I have seen... maybe there are other factors that I am not thinking about?
i'm not just throwing theories out. I have literally weaned A group of calves, Cut half of them, put them out on grass and then sold them later on. it was pennies difference per lb. Did it twice and gave up.
i'm hoping to ideas but that is what I have seen... maybe there are other factors that I am not thinking about?
Goes beyond castration but speaks to the general concern of management.
http://www.dtnprogressivefarmer.com...02DDBA&paneContentId=71606&paneParentId=70063
http://www.dtnprogressivefarmer.com...02DDBA&paneContentId=71606&paneParentId=70063
Brute,
I don't think there are two cattle operation exactly alike, therefor IMO it is a management decision as to band or not and neither are wrong or right.
What is right, is what you decide based on all the variables in your own personal operation.
I personally band in my operation because of all the reasons stated previously ( problems with young bulls on the property etc ), but I certainly can understand why someone would not band ( weaned on wheels @ 400 lbs etc)
I don't band at birth because I breed year round and have to many cows and acres to find them at birth.
If I tried to band at birth I would end up spending more time with my cattle then I would with my family.
I do two round ups per year. One is done to vaccinate the cows and herd bull and band all bull calves.
The second is only to band the bull calves.
I do not vaccinate any calves unless I am keeping them as replacements which is done above 600 lbs.
And I only use a vet when I vaccinate my cows and bull.
This is what works best for me with my variables, but it might be totally off the wall for your operation with your variables.
Liz
I don't think there are two cattle operation exactly alike, therefor IMO it is a management decision as to band or not and neither are wrong or right.
What is right, is what you decide based on all the variables in your own personal operation.
I personally band in my operation because of all the reasons stated previously ( problems with young bulls on the property etc ), but I certainly can understand why someone would not band ( weaned on wheels @ 400 lbs etc)
I don't band at birth because I breed year round and have to many cows and acres to find them at birth.
If I tried to band at birth I would end up spending more time with my cattle then I would with my family.
I do two round ups per year. One is done to vaccinate the cows and herd bull and band all bull calves.
The second is only to band the bull calves.
I do not vaccinate any calves unless I am keeping them as replacements which is done above 600 lbs.
And I only use a vet when I vaccinate my cows and bull.
This is what works best for me with my variables, but it might be totally off the wall for your operation with your variables.
Liz
piedmontese
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Why do you use a vet when u vaccinate cows and bulls? Are u preg checking also?
It is about 40% good will and about 60% selfishness.
By using my vet I establish a working relationship/understanding between us.
She gets to know me, my herd and my capabilities, while I help keep her in business so when I need a large animal vet during an emergency she is there and can give me educated sound advise and will come out if she feels it is necessary.
As for the selfish part.
I use the vet as that ½ person I would have to hire while getting to ask any questions I might have
while we both look over each cow.
It's kind of like a vaccination and physical exam/check up all in one.
As for preg check.
Yes some times I do have her preg check one or two cows.
When you breed year round a cow should have either clean teats or be showing as I wean at around 600 lbs. If she has neither I will punch teat her, if I find nothing I will have her preg checked.
Now I don't micro manage but I feel it is well worth any extra cost, if any, just to have a vets opinion and expertise on the pace once a year to look over my herd and answer all my questions and concerns.
Liz
It's that which allows me to call him at 2 am and have him get out of bed to come over and resolve something I can't. I consider him almost a partner in our herd as it pertaines to herd health. He knows our cows almost a well as I do. We also use him for dehorning ( (haven;t had to do that in a few years), preg checking and bull work. As small as we are now he can vacinnate the cows/calves for less dollars out of my pocket then me buying a large enough amount of vaccine to get a good price on it.piedmontese":2zhulxbf said:
Here is a good article that ties in with using a vet to vaccinate.
Liz
Simple Steps To Up Your Cow Herd's Profitability
http://beefmagazine.com/blog/simple-ste ... fitability
Liz
Simple Steps To Up Your Cow Herd's Profitability
http://beefmagazine.com/blog/simple-ste ... fitability
houstoncutter
Well-known member
Red Bull Breeder":1hbzjdd2 said:
Preach on brother. I think many folks that don't retain ownership of their animals or that sell their animals under 500 lbs don't consider a few things . 1# That bull calf is gonna put on more solid muscle and weight than that steer. 2# Each time you pen those animals to work em you loose 2 to 3 percent body weight, even a bit more if you cut em at that penning. These aren't my figures, they are Texas A&M's, and I think it would be a bit lower if those animals were worked during the colder months. Its not to say that you cant get that weight back, but that just means you have to keep the animal on its mom and your pastures for a longer time.....Time is money, you take care of the pennies and dimes and the dollars will take care of themselves
houstoncutter":3nyf5uzy said:
That's "the fly in the butter milk" right? When you steer a calf it actually weighs less than its bull counter part. The percent of usable beef is considered higher so they pay more per lb. The end dollar amount is the same your just see-sawing how you got there. More weight at a lower price or less weight at a higher price. That's the reason for hormone injection in steers right?
Dave
Well-known member
houstoncutter":2y0warar said:
That 2 to 3% loss in weight is not a loss of muscle, fat, and bone. It is manure and urine that comes out a little ahead of schedule because the animal gets excited. That would be 10 to 15 pounds on a 500 pound calf. They darn sure don't lose 15 pounds of muscle or fat going through the chute. But they will sure loss 10 to 15 pounds of manure. We have all seen that. They will put that weight back on the first time they step up to the feed trough or the water tank.
Even a light bull calf straight off the cow with no vaccinations takes a hit here. And there is a huge difference between working a calf that gets shots, an ear tag, and branded and one that gets that plus gets cut. Not just more time in the chute but more risk involved to the buyer.
