Inbreeding

[HerefordSire]

Located in the actual document accessible from I link I posted (see below). The percentage of sires with missing pedigree information...what a no-no for the breed in general and especially breed purists. Who could have made a management error like that? Who was on the board of directors during this time period?


"During the last half of the 20th century, breeders
may have imported animals that would not have been
in the association's pedigree file. The percentage of sires
(from 1950) with unknown parentage and mean inbreeding
for the full pedigree are shown in Figure 6.
The percentage of sires with missing pedigree information
was small and consistent until the early 1970s,
when it increased rapidly through the early 1990s. The
percentage of sires with missing pedigree information
was small (1.3% at its peak), but assuming that most
of the missing parentage is due to importation of genetics
into the population, it is likely that the imported
parents were widely selected for above-average performance.
Although the proportion of progeny from these
sires was less than 1% of all progeny (results not
shown), the multiplicative effects of these genes on subsequent
generations would likely affect the breed and
may have contributed to the decrease in relationship
between influential sires (Figure 5). The increase in
unknown parentage coincided with the decreasing inbreeding
trend and is one potential explanation for
the decrease.



Could this be why the registrations of Hereford has been drastically shrinking (chart in same document)? At this rate, I may be the only breeder of Herefords in twenty years. I wonder what the registration fee per animal would be then? Surely I would have the top bull of the year just like the inventor of the breed Mr. Gammons. I guess we will have alot in common. One document I read concerning a similar problem was "red" hair being discounted in markets written by the Chariman of the Board of the AHA. Is this a lame excuse? Is the real reason because Hereford breeders are trying to sell purebred Herefords that are not purebred because alien blood entered the breed and a big coverup occurred becuase the pedigree information is missing on imported animals?????????????????

 

[redfornow]

No I think the decrease in registration numbers has alot to do with:
1. The whole nations cow herd going black.
2. high cost to register.
3. breed being very "clicky"
4. over use of "show" type animals.
5. overpriced semen and certs.
and throw in a lack of interest in CE and BW in many circles.
Well heck it amazing that any of us still breed the darn things.

Maybe some of the more "older" breeders can help me out with my list as I am sure that I have missed one or to....

MD

 

[KNERSIE]

No I think the decrease in registration numbers has alot to do with:
1. The whole nations cow herd going black.
2. high cost to register.
3. breed being very "clicky"
4. over use of "show" type animals.
5. overpriced semen and certs.
and throw in a lack of interest in CE and BW in many circles.
Well heck it amazing that any of us still breed the darn things.

Maybe some of the more "older" breeders can help me out with my list as I am sure that I have missed one or to....

MD

I can add to this list...

Overemphasis on showing bred all functionality out of the breed (the pony era) after that the overemphasis on growth and performance (the racehorse era) bred the rest of the traits that made herefords popular 100 years ago out of the breed. Luckily the turn has been made and more recently the more moderate more functional animals with maternal quality are doing well at the moment and are hopefully here to stay.

In SA the registered hereford cow numbers are up by 11% in the last year. If we stick with moderate cattle, with milk and muscle and fertility that can do it with mimimum inputs and work on eye pigment and BW this trend will hopefully continue.

I personally think the breed associations don't use the fertility of herefords enough in their advertising programs. It helps very little that the breeders know it, but no-one else does. In SA herefords have the smallest ICP of all breeds, 392 days, the national average of all breeds are 416 days.

 

[HerefordSire]

I'm not a breed purist, much more of a pragmatist.

BUT, having been raised by the most honest man I've ever known(who was a breed purist!), I have to constantly guard against my idealistic tendencies creeping in past that point of pragmatism.



Read this..."Consequences of Pragmatism"

http://www.marxists.org/reference/subje ... /rorty.htm


It all boils down to philosophy and OUR differences in philosophy are apparent based on some of the posts that you've made here, HerefordSire.

I agree, we are very different. I respect you though.




Personally, I want to maintain my herd integrity as well as MY own integrity! If I produce a product that I DON'T believe in, I'm sure not going to sell it to someone else! And that places no heavy burden on my shoulders at all!

Are you gonna just give the product away? If so, do you have any cows you don't believe in?


But money isn't my motivating factor in choosing to breed Hereford cattle. I never have to sell a single animal for breeding stock if I don't want to.

We are lucky huh, so far? What is your motivating factor to haul hay in 105 degree weather when you are tired and hungry?


I do HOPE the cattle that I produce will have appeal to others, but they first have to appeal to ME before I will make them available!

Do you have any that don't appeal to you? If so, I have a few extra acres.



My point is: IF my Hereford cattle have Simmental blood in them, I'd like to know it! Then it is up to me what I do with the information, the same as everyone else.

Me also. Do you have a problem selling your 15G cattle as purebred?

What I abhor is the fact that so many people seem to want the "dirt" swept under the carpet and keep it hidden there.

I agree as it should be uncovered.

 

[HerefordSire]

The first Polled Hereford came into being as the result of a mutant genetic combination. I have also read this caused another mutant genetic combination relative to Horned Herefords making them more profitable. Do you think Polled Herefords have an advantage over Horned Herefords because of the 2nd mutant genetic combination? Are you a member of each Texas Hereford Association? Do you think prejudices exist for each Association by some members? Did your father raise both horned and polled? How do you feel about polled breeders in general?

For me, Polled Herefords have a distinct advantage over Horned Herefords because of the genetic mutation. I personally do NOT like dehorning. My father had no problem with it as he never dehorned anything. We never had a Polled Hereford on the place.

I'm presently a member of neither of the Texas Hereford Assns. I WAS a member of the THA but I placed a call to the Secretary-Manager about changing my advertising a year or so ago and I've yet to get a return call from him. I'd already mentioned it to him once before, so I thought I'd get his attention by not paying my advertising bill and my membership dues, then I'd finally receive a call back, but that hasn't worked as of this post. Perhaps someone will see this post and "clue him in"! So I presently have issues with the management of the THA and I probably will not renew my membership there. And I'll also not pay my advertising bill until I at least receive that call!

I've never been a member of the TPHA, but I am considering joining, since my long term goal is to have a herd that is 100% polled.

As for the differences in the two groups, I think the THA is largely controlled by and highly focused on the larger breeders who advertise regularly in the magazine, where the TPHA seems to be a more "family oriented" and youth focused group.

There is no doubt that prejudices exist in both directions.

Many of my long-time horned Hereford acquaintances think I've "bastardized" my Hereford cows by using a Keynote son on them, even though he has the required antlers. A few are starting to come around and use similar genetics themselves, now.

I know of at least one local polled breeder that feels the same way about introducing any horned genetics into his polled cattle.

How do I feel about polled breeders in general? Why do you ask?

George

Thanks for answering my questions George. Did you answer this one?

Do you think Polled Herefords have an advantage over Horned Herefords because of the 2nd mutant genetic combination?

To answer your question...because you grew up in a "Horned" household I figured you may have resisted the theory of the second genetic mutant combination of Polled Herefords. If so, this could cause a little influence on how you communicate to other Polled Hereford breeders.

Do you think Herefords will repeat what the Texas Longhorns experienced? If this happens, I believe the purist breeders stock will skyrocket in value and the tainted stock will tank in value....maybe within our lifetime.

 

[Brandonm2]

Do you think Herefords will repeat what the Texas Longhorns experienced? If this happens, I believe the purist breeders stock will skyrocket in value and the tainted stock will tank in value....maybe within our lifetime.

I am still of the view; that most commercial cattlemen couldn't give two rips about whether Titan, Perfection, 15G (who I had heard NOTHING untoward about until this string), Justa Banner, etc 7 generations back in the pedigree really trace all their lineages to Anxiety the Fourth or NOT. The commercial cattlemen want a mild mannered bull, who sires calves of managable birth weight, that weigh well by the pound, and daughters who make mellow cows that stay in production 13++ years. IF Hereford can deliver genetics that will cross well with the nation's black cow herd they will prosper.....if not (like Shorthorns) there will always be some on the show circuit.

 

[rocket2222]

I bet she's a good cow too!

George

She does ok, 7 year old, 5 calves, this was her first.

 

[Northern Rancher]

Well as a commercial man I sure as heck give a RIP when I A'I'ed to 7777 and got rat tailed greys out of purebred Angus cows. Maybe the Hereford breed needs an IB registry like the Red Angus does. Most guys buy registered cattle for a reason if they wanted a crossbred bull they'd buy one.

 

[Brandonm2]

Well as a commercial man I sure as heck give a RIP when I A'I'ed to 7777 and got rat tailed greys out of purebred Angus cows. Maybe the Hereford breed needs an IB registry like the Red Angus does. Most guys buy registered cattle for a reason if they wanted a crossbred bull they'd buy one.

Sorry, you had a bad experience. I personally wouldn't have any objection if they registered "appendix Herefords". Anything greater than 7/8s might as well be "purebred". Hereford and Angus both have a lot of "graded up" cattle from the very beginning in this country, whether people want to admit it or not. In the 60s, the market demaned BIG Herefords. If they got that from a Sim/Hereford cross or a Chiford then more power to good marketing. The last time I looked we got paid for rat tailed greys by the pound like every other commercial calf. Hopefully 777 gave you enough extra pounds that it paid for the ones that got the rat tail dock......if not it was just another bad day at the sale barn.

 

[Herefords.US]

Who cares if the bull is "impure" in some ridiculously minor way if he sires good calves and daughters with fertility and longevity? This business is supposed to be about growing beef.

Brandon, I care! Perhaps I'm mistaken that there are others, too?

To follow your logic in this post, I guess we could just do away with breed associations altogether, crossbreed to our heart's content, and just have one big massive cowherd called "beefmakers"?

WHY do I care, personally? I've made no secret that I intend to pursue a linebreeding program. In a linebreeding program, pedigree plays a larger role because the instance an animal may appear in the pedigree and the "genepool" can be multiplied several fold over a more traditional breeding program.

One of my goals is to eventually have a 100% polled herd. Now that's not the PRIMARY goal, but it's a few rungs down the list.

15G appears in EVERY cow that I currently own that is POLLED.

I've seen two herds in Texas that have quite a bit of 23D blood in their background. In fact, I purchased every Achiever daughter/granddaughter that they owned, that DIDN'T also trace back to 23D, from one of them.

They both have some great cattle, BUT one of the things that I noticed was a peculiar "dirty yellow" color in some of their cattle. A look at the pedigrees of these cattle showed that they traced back to 23D in both the top and bottom side of their pedigrees. It's just an observation and not a scientific study, but I'd be curious to know how many of these "yellow" cattle also have the diluter gene present.

I think I'd be foolish to not pursue this rumor regarding 15G AND PLACE IT IN CONTEXT before I get several generations into the linebreeding program and find out the "hard way"!

George

 

[Herefords.US]

Personally, I want to maintain my herd integrity as well as MY own integrity! If I produce a product that I DON'T believe in, I'm sure not going to sell it to someone else! And that places no heavy burden on my shoulders at all!

Are you gonna just give the product away? If so, do you have any cows you don't believe in?


But money isn't my motivating factor in choosing to breed Hereford cattle. I never have to sell a single animal for breeding stock if I don't want to.

We are lucky huh, so far? What is your motivating factor to haul hay in 105 degree weather when you are tired and hungry?


I do HOPE the cattle that I produce will have appeal to others, but they first have to appeal to ME before I will make them available!

Do you have any that don't appeal to you? If so, I have a few extra acres.

My point is: IF my Hereford cattle have Simmental blood in them, I'd like to know it! Then it is up to me what I do with the information, the same as everyone else.

Me also. Do you have a problem selling your 15G cattle as purebred?

What I abhor is the fact that so many people seem to want the "dirt" swept under the carpet and keep it hidden there.

I agree as it should be uncovered.

HerefordSire, any animal from my herd that doesn't "appeal" to me gets taken to the local auction barn and sold there. If they are of producing age, I don't test them, trying to assure that they will not end up in someone's commercial herd.

I've purchased several animals from other breeders, at significant prices, that have suffered this fate. Most have ended up there because of lack of milk or fertility problems, but disposition is also a factor I strongly consider. A cow that was a donor cow for another breeder ended up at the sale barn because I didn't like her disposition(and the fact that she was almost 1600lbs). I currently have one home-raised yearling heifer, a 552 daughter, that is going to suffer the same fate because of her disposition. She's a nice heifer in every other way!

Since I'm in a herd expansion mode, all females I deem to be replacement quality are currently retained. The rest are sold at the sale barn as feeders. If they weren't good enough for me to retain them as cow prospects, I'm not going to sell them to someone else as such.

I've been a bit unlucky in that my first few calf crops have been running about 2/3rds bull calves. The only bull calves that I've retained are ones that I consider for possible use in my own herd. Most are taken to the sale barn at weaning.

I have sold a few bulls after developing them out and using them myself. I've done very little marketing - no need to until I reach a level where I feel I can afford to let some of my better calves go.

As far as my motivation in hauling hay at 105 degrees, it doesn't take a LOT of motivation to haul large round bales in the air conditioned comfort of a pickup cab with a bale spike on it.

George

 

[redfornow]

"As far as my motivation in hauling hay at 105 degrees, it doesn't take a LOT of motivation to haul large round bales in the air conditioned comfort of a pickup cab with a bale spike on it."

Nope and it doesnt take alot of motivation, if you like what you do and the people you are in with.

MD

 

[Herefords.US]

Nope and it doesnt take alot of motivation, if you like what you do and the people you are in with.

MD

Now, checking the heavy pregnant cows in subfreezing weather and finding one where only a calf's tail is hanging out of her...dealing with that takes a little more "grit"!

I have admiration for those of you that calve in winter, especially those in the northern reaches!

George

 

[oakcreekfarms]

Aren't these breed up programs destroying the purity that gives us the heterosis that we need in order to sell to commercial buyers. There is no way that should be allowed in any breed. It's only an attempt to drive registrations within a breed association, and a way that these breed associations are trying to fight the flight towards a black dominated cow herd. Limo's, british whites, short horn, and I think red angus are all moving in that direction; herefords should stay far away from it in my opinion.

 

[Brandonm2]

Aren't these breed up programs destroying the purity that gives us the heterosis that we need in order to sell to commercial buyers. There is no way that should be allowed in any breed. It's only an attempt to drive registrations within a breed association, and a way that these breed associations are trying to fight the flight towards a black dominated cow herd. Limo's, british whites, short horn, and I think red angus are all moving in that direction; herefords should stay far away from it in my opinion.

The Hereford assn needs the money like everybody else and anything that will reverse the 20++ year trend in shringing registrations needs to be put on the table.....yesterday!! They also encourage bull buyers to follow their last Hereford bull with another Hereford bull so could help bull sales as well. I think ideals need to always take a back seat to improving cash flow....but I may be in the minority.

 

[Brandonm2]

To follow your logic in this post, I guess we could just do away with breed associations altogether, crossbreed to our heart's content, and just have one big massive cowherd called "beefmakers"?
George

Parts of this country are already headed that way; but they call them "Angus".

 

[Brandonm2]

15G appears in EVERY cow that I currently own that is POLLED.

I've seen two herds in Texas that have quite a bit of 23D blood in their background. In fact, I purchased every Achiever daughter/granddaughter that they owned, that DIDN'T also trace back to 23D, from one of them.

They both have some great cattle, BUT one of the things that I noticed was a peculiar "dirty yellow" color in some of their cattle. A look at the pedigrees of these cattle showed that they traced back to 23D in both the top and bottom side of their pedigrees. It's just an observation and not a scientific study, but I'd be curious to know how many of these "yellow" cattle also have the diluter gene present.

I think I'd be foolish to not pursue this rumor regarding 15G AND PLACE IT IN CONTEXT before I get several generations into the linebreeding program and find out the "hard way"!

George

I wouldn't worry too much about the "dirty yellow". There USED to be whole cow families in the breed that had that "off" coloration. At one time that was popular in Texas Polled Herefords. My Grandfather had a few ~frame ones like that. I don't know whether that is a "taint" from the Longhorns or the Jersey/Guernsey dairy cows of the 19th century; but it was there in the breed long before Simmentals came into the country.

As for 15G I doubt seriously that your cows or 15G are going to be 'excommunicated' from the Breed. I don't know the details of the BT CL Domino 15G stories to even comment (though looking at the pedigree the massive sea change in type between him and his sire could raise some eyebrows); but there was a lot more smoke circling Perfection and I see that he is still in the Herf data base. Northern Rancher provided some evidence of possible impropriety in the case of Titan 7777. I can't remember WHEN there wasn't talk about THAT bull.....yet Feltons Domino 774 is a direct descendent and is the progenitor of one of the hottest Hereford lines today. I don't see 774, Legend, Ozzie etc getting booted. And I doubt that the 15G descendents like Grand Finale are in any danger either. Somebody knowledgable like Camp could point out red flag sires in virtually every popular non-Line one sire's pedigree. Herefords ARE what previous generations of breeders made them to be. You either love them like they are or leave them. You don't get to go back in time to 1900 Herefords and get to do the 20th century over again.

 

[Herefords.US]

As for 15G I doubt seriously that your cows or 15G are going to be 'excommunicated' from the Breed. I don't know the details of the BT CL Domino 15G stories to even comment (though looking at the pedigree the massive sea change in type between him and his sire could raise some eyebrows); but there was a lot more smoke circling Perfection and I see that he is still in the Herf data base. Northern Rancher provided some evidence of possible impropriety in the case of Titan 7777. I can't remember WHEN there wasn't talk about THAT bull.....yet Feltons Domino 774 is a direct descendent and is the progenitor of one of the hottest Hereford lines today. I don't see 774, Legend, Ozzie etc getting booted. And I doubt that the 15G descendents like Grand Finale are in any danger either.

I've never thought that they'd be banned. I don't think that's possible....certainly not pragmatic. I'm much more concerned about the genetic effect rather than the political effect.

I've heard rumblings the concerning Perfection, but I don't know the history of that either.

You see, that's the problem I have. Like I've said before, I have a LONG history and good working knowledge of the horned side of Hereford cattle. I took 20 years off, but I remained passively involved so it was easier to catch up.

I'm little more than a novice on Polled Herefords and their history, but I'd like to learn!

When I ask questions, I am presented with the "water under the bridge" philosophy that I've been presented with - in this thread AND by the few Polled Hereford breeders I've asked.

That's kinda' like telling a student of American History and the War Between the States, "Forget about it - the NORTH won!"

It's a little more complicated than that...and there is certainly more that can be learned by examining the history.

L. P. McCann had the courage to chronicle the history of dwarfism in the Hereford breed in his book, "Battle of the Bull Runts". That's history virtually every horned Hereford breeder wanted to forget....but there's something that most cattleman can learn from reading that book.

Somebody knowledgable like Camp could point out red flag sires in virtually every popular non-Line one sire's pedigree.

The Line 1 breeders are having their own crisis right now - the "shaker" calves. Expect more to come out on that soon.

Herefords ARE what previous generations of breeders made them to be. You either love them like they are or leave them. You don't get to go back in time to 1900 Herefords and get to do the 20th century over again.

Actually, through the use of AI, you can reach quite a few years back into the 20th century - not that I'm recommending that.

But loving them as they are? No. I want to improve them!

But I've also considering leaving as well. Black Herefords look like a breed struggling to get a start that might welcome the help.

George

 

[KNERSIE]

But loving them as they are? No. I want to improve them!

I want to impove them because I love them so much.

 

[rocket2222]

Just talked to Jack Ward at the AHA, he said all Hereford bulls that have semen for sale to reg. herds are parent verified, either through blood typing or dna testing, if 15G has not been dna tested some of his many sons or daughters have been, and anything adnormal would have shown up then. He knew nothing had been reported about 15G