Inbreeding

[KNERSIE]

Sometimes it doesn't pay to be the tallest animal in the herd! (I'm 6'5")

I am 6' so I'll be safe when standing next to you ;-)

I look forward to seeing the photos. I just looked at some old show photos of Mark Donald sired cattle this morning, very few is any of those were even a frame 3, by judging their height against the handlers.

 

[Oldtimer]

One of the things I find interesting is how in the last few years some of the Hereford breeders have began testing and admitting to their bulls/heifers (certain hereford bloodlines) carrying the diluter gene (produces rat tails )....

Now I could be wrong- but I don't remember the Hereford breed ever having any problems producing rat tails back in the old days (a problem with dwarfs, but not rattails) - only since the importation of the Continental breeds and the dilutor gene...

Could this be how some of the bloodlines increased in frame size so fast? A little Simmental or Fleckvieh hiding in the woodpile?

 

[KNERSIE]

One of the things I find interesting is how in the last few years some of the Hereford breeders have began testing and admitting to their bulls/heifers (certain hereford bloodlines) carrying the diluter gene (produces rat tails )....

Now I could be wrong- but I don't remember the Hereford breed ever having any problems producing rat tails back in the old days (a problem with dwarfs, but not rattails) - only since the importation of the Continental breeds and the dilutor gene...

Could this be how some of the bloodlines increased in frame size so fast? A little Simmental or Fleckvieh hiding in the woodpile?

Thats what I suspect

 

[Herefords.US]

I am sure there was frame 5-6 cattle and I am sure the selection of taller framed cattle could have been done and eventually end up in about frame 8s. I just question the total shift in almost the entire hereford population.

In HORNED Hereford cattle, most of the increase in frame size during that time can be attributed to the Line 1 cattle.

Of course, there was also the influence from imported Canadian bred Herefords, some of whom were of questionable lineage(Titan 23D).

But I believe there were larger framed Canadian bred Herefords that were of "pure lineage" as well.

Now, POLLED Herefords, I'm not nearly as familiar with.

I have been told by some breeders that, besides the 23D influence that shows up in the polled cattle, the bull - BT CL Domino 15G - is of questionable breeding. If that is the case, that "clouds" a majority of Polled Hereford cattle.

George

 

[Northern Rancher]

Was Titan 23D the sire of Titan 7777-he was truly one of the better half Simmental bulls that semen was ever marketed on.

 

[Herefords.US]

Was Titan 23D the sire of Titan 7777-he was truly one of the better half Simmental bulls that semen was ever marketed on.

Sire of 7777:

I've got 10 straws of 7777 semen. I was considering using it to produce some good recip females.

George

 

[KNERSIE]

how much simmental was claimed to be in Titan 23D?

How many more less known bulls (or cows) slipped through unnoticed. I would suspect the biggest and easiest opportunity to cheat would be through cows. Unless the cow reach greatness through her progeny, who would have known?

Two generations later no-one would even question the offspring

 

[Herefords.US]

how much simmental was claimed to be in Titan 23D?

He's 100% registered Hereford but the speculation was that he was 25% Simmi.

George

 

[Oldtimer]

how much simmental was claimed to be in Titan 23D?

He's 100% pure registered Hereford but the speculation was that he was 25% Simmi.

George

OXH Monarch is another one I remember that carries the dilutor gene...And he was used quite extensively, so is in the pedigree of many registered Herefords....

 

[Northern Rancher]

Well I wouldn't use 7777 in a purebrede cow unless it was my mother-in-laws.

 

[Herefords.US]

Well I wouldn't use 7777 in a purebrede cow unless it was my mother-in-laws.

I was planning on using it on a handful of black-whiteface heifers that I have - to expand their numbers to use as recips.

I don't want to use them for recips until they have calved once. 7777's BW EPDs look OK to use for heifers.

George

 

[HerefordSire]

This is the federal government web site for maintaining major animal germplasm (just in case):

http://www.ars-grin.gov/animal/

By drilling down, you can locate stored semen for three groups of Herefords, L1, Prospector, & the rest.

By looking at the graph by following this link:

http://www.ars-grin.gov/animal/update7.html

..one would think the government became alarmed at the gentic diversity of animals including Hereford Cattle. They even mentioned one Hereford animal with 76% inbreeding (see below). Does anyone know which animal this is?




Beef Cattle – Discussions have proceeded with the Beefmaster Breeders Universal concerning the initiation of a germplasm collection for that breed. The association is identifying families and bulls which they would like to have as part of the germplasm collection. The American Hereford Association has allowed NAGP access to its pedigree files to determine the level of inbreeding for that breed. The analysis indicates that approximately 95% of the cattle registered between 1990 and 2001 were inbred. The average inbreeding level in 2001 was 9.8%; one animal had a 76% inbreeding level.

 

[HerefordSire]

I am sure there was frame 5-6 cattle and I am sure the selection of taller framed cattle could have been done and eventually end up in about frame 8s. I just question the total shift in almost the entire hereford population.

In HORNED Hereford cattle, most of the increase in frame size during that time can be attributed to the Line 1 cattle.

Of course, there was also the influence from imported Canadian bred Herefords, some of whom were of questionable lineage(Titan 23D).

But I believe there were larger framed Canadian bred Herefords that were of "pure lineage" as well.

Now, POLLED Herefords, I'm not nearly as familiar with.

I have been told by some breeders that, besides the 23D influence that shows up in the polled cattle, the bull - BT CL Domino 15G - is of questionable breeding. If that is the case, that "clouds" a majority of Polled Hereford cattle.

George

The same BT CL Domino 15G as shown TWICE (line-bred) in MM Stockmaster 512's pedigree?

"His dam, MM Miss Master 977, is said by many to be one of the greatest Polled Hereford cows to walk. *At Stone Creek Farm all the 512 progeny, both bulls and heifers, have the largest pelvic areas of any sire group. The females also start cycling at an earlier age when compared to other sires."

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 2=43515E5E

 

[Northern Rancher]

George I got rat tailed smokies when I used 7777 on purebred black cows but on baldies you might get lucky and get red calves.

 

[Herefords.US]

George I got rat tailed smokies when I used 7777 on purebred black cows but on baldies you might get lucky and get red calves.

Thanks for the info, NR. Considering these "black baldies" mothers were at least 25% Charolais, does that increase the possibility of rat tails?

George

 

[Herefords.US]

The same BT CL Domino 15G as shown TWICE (line-bred) in MM Stockmaster 512's pedigree?

Actually, I think 15G appears three times in 512's pedigree.

15G appears in a lot of pedigrees. I've heard the rumor about 15G from several sources, but I have been unable to run down someone who knows the basis of the rumor(background) - and wanted to share what they knew. I figured I'd just throw it out here...and either get shot down...or find someone who'd share what they know about it.

Like I said, I don't know that much about the old line Polled Hereford genetics. If 15G is tainted, it means that 100% of my cow herd that IS polled is tainted as well, as he appears in every one of their pedigrees somewhere.

George

 

[Oldtimer]

I'm glad to see that these breeders are checking and announcing if their cattle are dilutor gene carriers...

The first time I heard the announcement was from Courtney Herefords- when they announced that a couple of their bulls should not be used on black cows or on purebred stock ...Since then I have heard of a few others...
It will be the only way the Hereford world will clean it up...Its just too bad these honorable and reputable breeders have to clean up the mess made someone elses foulup or fraud.....

 

[ollie?]

I'm glad to see that these breeders are checking and announcing if their cattle are dilutor gene carriers...

The first time I heard the announcement was from Courtney Herefords- when they announced that a couple of their bulls should not be used on black cows or on purebred stock ...Since then I have heard of a few others...
It will be the only way the Hereford world will clean it up...Its just too bad these honorable and reputable breeders have to clean up the mess made someone elses foulup or fraud.....

The first hereford was named silver . I guess the dilutor gene has been around a while. What difference does it make if 15G or any other old bull had (mistakenly or otherwise) a shot of simme or charolais. He's part of the breed and has been for almost 30 years. Good grief, worry about something else. Not everything is crooked either. I have been to more than one national sale where you know that to enter an animal they have to have a DNA profile where the sire and dam are proven . Even here, I've seen instances where an animal has to be recatalogued due to the neighbors bull or a different bull being the sire of the sale calf. Is someone was going to cheat , they wouldn't make a fool out of theirself in a national sale. I know of one instance where the dam was wrong. They had to bleed all the cows that calved on that day to verify the dam. They knew which cow raised the calf but they were calving indoors in the north and the cows claimed a different calf.

 

[Northern Rancher]

George you should be ok-if anything you might end up with some buckskins lol. I guess if I want to use a Simmental cross bull I'd buy one-I'd sorted my best black cows to use 7777 on to raise baldies and ended up with a bunch of bad haired feeder heifers. It's funny how colour works we first started using Black bulls on Char/Hfd cows and they'd throw jet black calves most of the time. Whenever you've got a bunch of cows calving it's easy to get some mixups-cows trade calves more than we'll probably ever know-I catch them the odd time if a calf is marked different.

 

[Herefords.US]

What difference does it make if 15G or any other old bull had (mistakely or otherwise) a shot of simme or charolais. He's part of the breed and has been for almost 30 years. Good grief, worry about something else.

It just makes a difference to some people, Ollie. There are some "breed purists" among a breeder's potential customer base that look upon a whole herd as suspect if just a few animals in it trace to these bulls. Just because YOU (or I) choose to "accept" these animals doesn't mean its acceptable for everyone.

I know plenty of long-time horned Hereford breeders that look upon ALL Polled Hereford genetics as "suspect". When you live in Texas, you don't have to drive far to find one that feels that way. That's probably the primary reason that we still have 2 State Hereford Breed Associations in Texas, the THA and the TPHA.

In the case of Titan 23D, several long-time Hereford breeders advised me to avoid his influence when I was getting back into the business. I've tried to follow that advice because it just seemed pragmatic to do so. The diluter gene presents a problem and its presence pretty well confirms what most people "suspected" back in the 70s, but couldn't prove.

One of these breeders that gave me that advice was a close friend of the person from the AHA that actually did the investigation on 23D. He said the AHA rep was totally convinced that there was absolutely no skulduggery involved among those involved in the breeding/importation/use of 23D. The AHA rep was certain it was an "honest" mistake...and a mistake that he was unable to prove at that time through bloodtesting the few related animals available.

One person told me that the reason more POLLED breeders are accepting of the 23D influence in the breed is because of the rumors regarding 15G and that they figure the breed's gene pool was already tainted.

So, regarding 15G, since hearing that rumor, I've been attempting to find out its basis, and how the breeders who were around during that time feel about it. I figure education would serve me a lot better than ignorance, ollie. Perhaps you disagree?

George