Inbreeding

[ollie?]

It just makes a difference to some people, Ollie. There are some "breed purists" among a breeder's potential customer base that look upon a whole herd as suspect if just a few animals in it trace to these bulls. Just because YOU (or I) choose to "accept" these animals doesn't mean its acceptable for everyone.

From a sales standpoint I understand both the unsalable pedigree and the unsalability of the off color. In the instance of 15G or Victor or such, they were so popular they have become the breed whether they were clean or not.

 

[HerefordSire]

It sure does sound like Simmentals mixed with Herefords in order to decrease inbreeding percentage so rapidly. This may explain the acceleration of frame size in a short period of time.

Are goggle eyes a Hereford trait or a Simmential trait, or neither, or both? If goggle eyes are a Simmental trait, did the goggle eyes begin to show up with Herefords afer 1965? What about additional white coloring in unsual places?

 

[KNERSIE]

goggle eyes are very usual in simmentals at least here in SA.

traditionally eye pigment was present in some pure herefords long before simmentals were imported to the USA. I have never seen goggles in the old hereford reference books, though.

 

[dun]

I have never seen goggles in the old hereford reference books, though.

Could it be that they were discriminated against because they weren't "traditionally marked"?

dun

 

[Badlands]

It sure does sound like Simmentals mixed with Herefords in order to decrease inbreeding percentage so rapidly.

Herefordsire, you are not getting "it". Whether or not Simmental came into the mix is irrelavent to the calculation of the IBC's. They are based on what the PAPER says the parents are, not what the animal actually is bred like.

Badlands

 

[KNERSIE]

I have never seen goggles in the old hereford reference books, though.

Could it be that they were discriminated against because they weren't "traditionally marked"?

dun

Dun, it could very well be, but I haven't read anything in the old breed standards of excellence about eye pigment, or too much eye pigment.

 

[HerefordSire]

The same BT CL Domino 15G as shown TWICE (line-bred) in MM Stockmaster 512's pedigree?

Actually, I think 15G appears three times in 512's pedigree.

15G appears in a lot of pedigrees. I've heard the rumor about 15G from several sources, but I have been unable to run down someone who knows the basis of the rumor(background) - and wanted to share what they knew. I figured I'd just throw it out here...and either get shot down...or find someone who'd share what they know about it.

Like I said, I don't know that much about the old line Polled Hereford genetics. If 15G is tainted, it means that 100% of my cow herd that IS polled is tainted as well, as he appears in every one of their pedigrees somewhere.

George

I can understand why purist are so picky about there herds now. The purist breeders must have special steel fences with eight strands of hot wire half of which come from different power sources, huh? It is alot to place on one's shoulders, to always maintain herd integrity, and to believe in the product we each sell to others. If we market purebred and the animal is not purebred, that is a heavy cross to bear. Which principal lines are known beyond a shadow of a doubt to be pure? Personally, based upon the little bit I know, having a little Simmental in my herd is not far from the origins of the breed itself. As long as noone did it intentionally or knew it but tried to cover up...etc... you get the idea...

 

[HerefordSire]

It just makes a difference to some people, Ollie. There are some "breed purists" among a breeder's potential customer base that look upon a whole herd as suspect if just a few animals in it trace to these bulls. Just because YOU (or I) choose to "accept" these animals doesn't mean its acceptable for everyone.

From a sales standpoint I understand both the unsalable pedigree and the unsalability of the off color. In the instance of 15G or Victor or such, they were so popular they have become the breed whether they were clean or not.

Victor?

 

[Herefords.US]

I'm not a breed purist, much more of a pragmatist.

BUT, having been raised by the most honest man I've ever known(who was a breed purist!), I have to constantly guard against my idealistic tendencies creeping in past that point of pragmatism.

It all boils down to philosophy and OUR differences in philosophy are apparent based on some of the posts that you've made here, HerefordSire. This is another one!

I can understand why purist are so picky about there herds now. The purist breeders must have special steel fences with eight strands of hot wire half of which come from different power sources, huh? It is alot to place on one's shoulders, to always maintain herd integrity, and to believe in the product we each sell to others. If we market purebred and the animal is not purebred, that is a heavy cross to bear.

Personally, I want to maintain my herd integrity as well as MY own integrity! If I produce a product that I DON'T believe in, I'm sure not going to sell it to someone else! And that places no heavy burden on my shoulders at all!

But money isn't my motivating factor in choosing to breed Hereford cattle. I never have to sell a single animal for breeding stock if I don't want to.

I do HOPE the cattle that I produce will have appeal to others, but they first have to appeal to ME before I will make them available!

Which principal lines are known beyond a shadow of a doubt to be pure? Personally, based upon the little bit I know, having a little Simmental in my herd is not far from the origins of the breed itself. As long as noone did it intentionally or knew it but tried to cover up...etc... you get the idea...

My point is: IF my Hereford cattle have Simmental blood in them, I'd like to know it! Then it is up to me what I do with the information, the same as everyone else.

What I abhor is the fact that so many people seem to want the "dirt" swept under the carpet and keep it hidden there.

George

 

[HerefordSire]

What difference does it make if 15G or any other old bull had (mistakely or otherwise) a shot of simme or charolais. He's part of the breed and has been for almost 30 years. Good grief, worry about something else.

It just makes a difference to some people, Ollie. There are some "breed purists" among a breeder's potential customer base that look upon a whole herd as suspect if just a few animals in it trace to these bulls. Just because YOU (or I) choose to "accept" these animals doesn't mean its acceptable for everyone.

I know plenty of long-time horned Hereford breeders that look upon ALL Polled Hereford genetics as "suspect". When you live in Texas, you don't have to drive far to find one that feels that way. That's probably the primary reason that we still have 2 State Hereford Breed Associations in Texas, the THA and the TPHA.

In the case of Titan 23D, several long-time Hereford breeders advised me to avoid his influence when I was getting back into the business. I've tried to follow that advice because it just seemed pragmatic to do so. The diluter gene presents a problem and its presence pretty well confirms what most people "suspected" back in the 70s, but couldn't prove.

One of these breeders that gave me that advice was a close friend of the person from the AHA that actually did the investigation on 23D. He said the AHA rep was totally convinced that there was absolutely no skulduggery involved among those involved in the breeding/importation/use of 23D. The AHA rep was certain it was an "honest" mistake...and a mistake that he was unable to prove at that time through bloodtesting the few related animals available.

One person told me that the reason more POLLED breeders are accepting of the 23D influence in the breed is because of the rumors regarding 15G and that they figure the breed's gene pool was already tainted.

So, regarding 15G, since hearing that rumor, I've been attempting to find out its basis, and how the breeders who were around during that time feel about it. I figure education would serve me a lot better than ignorance, ollie. Perhaps you disagree?

George

The first Polled Hereford came into being as the result of a mutant genetic combination. I have also read this caused another mutant genetic combination relative to Horned Herefords making them more profitable. Do you think Polled Herefords have an advantage over Horned Herefords because of the 2nd mutant genetic combination? Are you a member of each Texas Hereford Association? Do you think prejudices exist for each Association by some members? Did your father raise both horned and polled? How do you feel about polled breeders in general?

 

[rocket2222]

I have a Hereford cow that goes back 7 times to 15G, would DNA testing show whether she had other than pure Hereford genetics ?.

 

[Herefords.US]

The first Polled Hereford came into being as the result of a mutant genetic combination. I have also read this caused another mutant genetic combination relative to Horned Herefords making them more profitable. Do you think Polled Herefords have an advantage over Horned Herefords because of the 2nd mutant genetic combination? Are you a member of each Texas Hereford Association? Do you think prejudices exist for each Association by some members? Did your father raise both horned and polled? How do you feel about polled breeders in general?

For me, Polled Herefords have a distinct advantage over Horned Herefords because of the genetic mutation. I personally do NOT like dehorning. My father had no problem with it as he never dehorned anything. We never had a Polled Hereford on the place.

I'm presently a member of neither of the Texas Hereford Assns. I WAS a member of the THA but I placed a call to the Secretary-Manager about changing my advertising a year or so ago and I've yet to get a return call from him. I'd already mentioned it to him once before, so I thought I'd get his attention by not paying my advertising bill and my membership dues, then I'd finally receive a call back, but that hasn't worked as of this post. Perhaps someone will see this post and "clue him in"! So I presently have issues with the management of the THA and I probably will not renew my membership there. And I'll also not pay my advertising bill until I at least receive that call!

I've never been a member of the TPHA, but I am considering joining, since my long term goal is to have a herd that is 100% polled.

As for the differences in the two groups, I think the THA is largely controlled by and highly focused on the larger breeders who advertise regularly in the magazine, where the TPHA seems to be a more "family oriented" and youth focused group.

There is no doubt that prejudices exist in both directions.

Many of my long-time horned Hereford acquaintances think I've "bastardized" my Hereford cows by using a Keynote son on them, even though he has the required antlers. A few are starting to come around and use similar genetics themselves, now.

I know of at least one local polled breeder that feels the same way about introducing any horned genetics into his polled cattle.

How do I feel about polled breeders in general? Why do you ask?

George

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I have a Hereford cow that goes back 7 times to 15G, would DNA testing show whether she had other than pure Hereford genetics ?.

Yes.

DOC HARRIS

 

[Herefords.US]

I have a Hereford cow that goes back 7 times to 15G.

I bet she's a good cow too!

George

 

[ollie?]

I'm not a breed purist, much more of a pragmatist.

BUT, having been raised by the most honest man I've ever known(who was a breed purist!), I have to constantly guard against my idealistic tendencies creeping in past that point of pragmatism.

It all boils down to philosophy and OUR differences in philosophy are apparent based on some of the posts that you've made here, HerefordSire. This is another one!

I can understand why purist are so picky about there herds now. The purist breeders must have special steel fences with eight strands of hot wire half of which come from different power sources, huh? It is alot to place on one's shoulders, to always maintain herd integrity, and to believe in the product we each sell to others. If we market purebred and the animal is not purebred, that is a heavy cross to bear.

Personally, I want to maintain my herd integrity as well as MY own integrity! If I produce a product that I DON'T believe in, I'm sure not going to sell it to someone else! And that places no heavy burden on my shoulders at all!

But money isn't my motivating factor in choosing to breed Hereford cattle. I never have to sell a single animal for breeding stock if I don't want to.

I do HOPE the cattle that I produce will have appeal to others, but they first have to appeal to ME before I will make them available!

Which principal lines are known beyond a shadow of a doubt to be pure? Personally, based upon the little bit I know, having a little Simmental in my herd is not far from the origins of the breed itself. As long as noone did it intentionally or knew it but tried to cover up...etc... you get the idea...

My point is: IF my Hereford cattle have Simmental blood in them, I'd like to know it! Then it is up to me what I do with the information, the same as everyone else.

What I abhor is the fact that so many people seem to want the "dirt" swept under the carpet and keep it hidden there.

George

George if you'll pm me a nationally recognized bull in your herd, I'll bet that I can find out where he is impure. It's in all breeds, all sires at some level. Why would you feel the least bit burdened by a mistake or intentional misrepresentation that was done by someone 30, 40 , or more years ago? A man can do all that he can to be honest and of the highest integrity, and should but to also be responsible for someone else is a heavy burden.

 

[Herefords.US]

George if you'll pm me a nationally recognized bull in your herd, I'll bet that I can find out where he is impure. It's in all breeds, all sires at some level.

Sorry, but I just don't believe that is true of ALL Herefords! I gave you an example, the one that I've been asking about:

BT CL Domino 15G

Tell me about him!

Why would you feel the least bit burdened by a mistake or intentional misrepresentation that was done by someone 30, 40 , or more years ago?

Once again, I feel no BURDEN! I'm simply just asking for feedback regarding this bull and about the rumor that I've been told.

Perhaps no one who posts here knows anything about it, but I doubt it, considering all the breeders with many years of experience in breeding Polled Herefords that I know frequent this board.

When I first asked, I halfway expected to have the whole thing shot down. When I look at a picture of 15G, I don't see the phenotypic characteristics of Simmi blood(like 23D shows).

All I've received from the people that I've asked off this board, and now here, for that matter, is "Let's let bygones be bygones" and other similar "water under the bridge" rhetoric.

That doesn't answer the question that I asked! It seems that people have forgotten HOW to directly answer a question when it comes to this bull. Have I finally stumbled on the "sacred cow"?

George

 

[KNERSIE]

I have BT CL Domino 15G influence in my herd as well, he doesn't look to have any Simmie in him, but if it was a few generations back I doubt you'd be able to see it.

He sired a few extremely tall bulls, haven't checked back in his pedigree yet to try and figure out where the extra frame size could have come from.

 

[Brandonm2]

Who cares if the bull is "impure" in some ridiculously minor way if he sires good calves and daughters with fertility and longevity? This business is supposed to be about growing beef.

 

[ollie?]

Sorry, but I just don't believe that is true of ALL Herefords! I gave you an example, the one that I've been asking about:

BT CL Domino 15G

Tell me about him!

If you are looking for someone who knows for sure about 15G, George Ellis is dead. He bred him. No one else knows for sure. There are always oddities in bulls pedigree. I'll guarantee you that there are sires in his pedigree that are suspect though, just the same as any other bull you use. I'm not in the hereford business BTW. You're barking up the wrong tree with me. My point is the same as Brandons , who cares. It was decades ago.

 

[Ned Jr.]

I have never seen goggles in the old hereford reference books, though.

Could it be that they were discriminated against because they weren't "traditionally marked"?

dun

Dun, it could very well be, but I haven't read anything in the old breed standards of excellence about eye pigment, or too much eye pigment.

I went to the AHA headquarters a couple years ago with a small group of hereford breeders and Bud Snidow gave us a very nice tour. AHA has quite a collection of old paintings and portraits. One thing I thought was very interesting was how much pigment herefords had in the portraits of the 1800's and photos of early 1900's. Some even looked like crossbreed cattle.
In the years following people wanted herefords to be "Mellow Yellow" and breeders couldn't hardly sell a red necked bull. Now people look to the mellow yellow, no pigment, feather necked herefords as being "traditional" when actually pigment has been a hereford trait all along.