I don't know what you are all complaining about

[Ebenezer]

Ken,
Another problem is people talking about what they dont have any experience with. So and so throws bad attitudes, bad feet, or poor udders. They have never owned one or never seen even a half a dozen progeny of bull double X but they heard he did from a friend (who didnt own any double X calves either) alot of those stories get started based on jealousy or something that happened between two farms 20 years ago. BTW I am guilty of passing on the same crap as well but will attempt to refrain from it in the future. I think you will see alot of stories in the future with whatever the current hot bull or program is, I caution everyone to trust their eyes before their ears, so to speak. Those stories do hurt sales because I would NOT use double x if his progeny have all these problems, so it has an effect.

But if you have had problems and say so the mob calls you a basher. No win with a peanut gallery type replies.

 

[Bright Raven]

All I ask for is fewer assumptions and more integrity. Shouldn't we all?
Like Ebeneezer pointed out with the AAA's assumptions on foot scores. Never got word from the AAA wanting foot measurements from any of my angus cattle, and I doubt many members did either. So where did their scores come from?

Milk scores are heavily weighted towards WW's, and assumes that calves with high ww without creep feed, come from bulls with cows that made more milk. Ignoring most of the environmental effects, or even milk quality, along with manipulations by the one reporting the data. If you're going to have a milk score, why not base it on lbs/day, and milk fat content like the dairy industry uses?

Utter scores? none existent. But they did add a $M index that has more to do with ce, and ww than anything when you consider that milk is also based mostly on ww.

Those are my thoughts, take it or leave it.

Next week, I have set up a conversation with a member of the AAA technical staff, I will specifically ask that question. The AAA has a news release on their website addressing the foot EPD. Very good read. But it does not state where the baseline came from.

Please do, and if you would ask when any kind of utter score will come around.

That would be utterly humorous to ask for an utter score. :cboy:

 

[sim.-ang.king]

Next week, I have set up a conversation with a member of the AAA technical staff, I will specifically ask that question. The AAA has a news release on their website addressing the foot EPD. Very good read. But it does not state where the baseline came from.

Please do, and if you would ask when any kind of utter score will come around.

That would be utterly humorous to ask for an utter score. :cboy:

I see what you did there, you shyster! Your not puny!



:lol:

 

[Redgully]

The way people are talking on here you would think that your Angus cows are falling to pieces after their first calf. I use genetics exclusively from the US and mostly on the recommendation from members on this forum. I think I raise my cattle in some challenging conditions, never is a season good from start to finish. My cows are never in the condition that Bright Ravens are in and they have to be very innovative foragers at times but I think they are healthy and I wean calves that are 2nd to none. The cows often amaze me how they go straight back in calf even though they may be experiencing challenging conditions. I see no evidence of unsoundness or foot troubles. I am more than happy with my herd.

I do like the variety of types within the Angus breed which allows me to choose the direction I wish to take. I now have a few GAR Prophet cows which I find are a bit harder doing than some but they raise some great calves and go straight back into calf. I have put these cows back to thicker easier doing bulls like SAV Renown and EF Commando and I very much like what I am getting. The Angus breed allows me to do this with the various phenotypes available to me.

With all the doom and gloom that some members are posting about Angus, I think it is about time we stand up and ask people to give specific examples of these perceived problems and not just this hypothetical BS that is being thrown around. I guess it is a case of the "tall poppy syndrome" where many people want to bring it down.

Ken

Back to the op i think you will find there is the same discussions in every breed. Everyone has an opinion on what direction the breed should take. Angus do it the best and every breed looks to Angus for direction. Ebvs should not be about the biggest and best but rather the traits you as a breeder are looking for. Most of the discussion on here is just noise and as you can see the proof is in the results you are achieving. Lets remember 30 years ago it was hereford all the way and angus didn't hardly get a mention. My Uncle who worked in butchering said they used to avoid angus and if they got one most of it was minced. Just goes to show how good a job the society and breeders have done. But other breeds have just as much to offer and a lot of breeds are coming back strongly. I mean limousin and charolais are building good numbers now and speckle park are taking all before them. But they are all looking to angus as a blueprint on how to go about it. I don't think angus breeders have anything to worry about.

 

[jehosofat]

How can a guy with 50 cows and a big mouth, be considered the authority on anything cattle related?

 

[Redgully]

How can a guy with 50 cows and a big mouth, be considered the authority on anything cattle related?

You obviously didn't get the memo, it's because he has done a "college-level statistical modeling courses" Not to mention he has a hotline in his house to all the bigwigs in the breed.

I feel privileged just to be on the same forum.

 

[jehosofat]

How can a guy with 50 cows and a big mouth, be considered the authority on anything cattle related?

You obviously didn't get the memo, it's because he has done a "college-level statistical modeling courses" Not to mention he has a hotline in his house to all the bigwigs in the breed.

I feel privileged just to be on the same forum.

I knew there must be something I was missing.

 

[Bcompton53]

They better not offer me $1000 a straw for anything in my tank. It would be gone.

Depends on what is in the tank.

If you don't think you can produce an animal worth $1k, then yes, sell it all.

What I was trying to say is I dont think America is worth $960 more than Rainfall, Raindance, Resource or anything in my tank. BTW I dont remember the last time I sold anything for less than $1000 I just dont feel the need to brag on CattleToday..

Obviously EPDs aren't everything. We've established that. But just looking at Americas numbers, and the accuracies of .05...Those numbers are less than worthless. It's interesting to watch the different facets of the cattle folks. The commercial guys just want to make a dollar or two on a good year, building their herd in whatever way makes that possible, in their location. If that means throwing in some Hereford or semmis or brahma, then that's what will happen. The club cattle folks, well, they are a breed of their own. Then some (not all!) of the purebred guys all trying to use the bull with the biggest political name, in the hopes of getting a couple of those super high dollar sales. The most fragile group seems to be those name chasers? Right? Am I missing something? At the end of the day we are trying to either win cattle shows, or produce meat right? So this crazy high dollar club is just one recession away from folks saying "well, at the end of the day, generally speaking, a good commercial steer has the same meat as a purebred that cost me 4 times the money to produce. Right? It seems like bitcoin to me in a way. There is additional value only because there is perceived additional value. A self perpetuating system. I am not saying that any of these groups is not profitable, clearly they are. But the commercial guy is profitable because of good decisions, cost control and market timing. The big name purebred guy is profitable because they convinced a bunch of other purebred folks that his unproven bull is worth a bazilian dollars.
Not trying to ruffle feathers, just commenting on my view of things.

 

[Nesikep]

I'd like to like that twice Bcompton!

 

[Bcompton53]

And I'm not dogging all purebred operations. Trust me. Honestly I have a lot of interest in the purebred herds.

 

[M-5]

And I'm not dogging all purebred operations. Trust me. Honestly I have a lot of interest in the purebred herds.

I know what your saying and know a couple of top notch folks that run purebreds. They are pleasant down to earth people that do promote the breed with vigor and passion. They are too nice to comment on the antics of brokehill but I can imagine they cringe when they read his rhetoric. commercial cattlemen (the group of folks that feed this hungry world) Need these operations to help theirs be profitable . I personally do not begrudge the owns that are successful. But I do see some that are all smoke and mirrors. Reputation is what is Others think not what you say it is.

 

[Bright Raven]

1. Obviously EPDs aren't everything.

2. The club cattle folks, well, they are a breed of their own.

3. Then some (not all!) of the purebred guys all trying to use the bull with the biggest political name, in the hopes of getting a couple of those super high dollar sales. The most fragile group seems to be those name chasers? Right?

4. At the end of the day we are trying to either win cattle shows, or produce meat right?

5. So this crazy high dollar club is just one recession away from folks saying "well, at the end of the day, generally speaking, a good commercial steer has the same meat as a purebred that cost me 4 times the money to produce. Right?

6. There is additional value only because there is perceived additional value. A self perpetuating system. I am not saying that any of these groups is not profitable, clearly they are.

7. The big name purebred guy is profitable because they convinced a bunch of other purebred folks that his unproven bull is worth a bazilian dollars.

1. Agree. They fill a need. The world runs on metrics. How much horse power? How fast does it go? What does it weigh? Some people who expect EPDs to walk, talk, and dance live in lalaland. They expect perfection where none is intended. EPDs are a solution to putting metrics on performance, function and traits.

2. Club cattle is a real business. Just like prostitution and sitting in a bar drinking is real business. Not for everyone but it is business.

3. Disagree. Most purebred breeders are trying to meet the needs of the commercial producer. A breeder recognizes what his market demands. Then if he is smart, he will fill that need so he can exchange his stock for currency. I will use any bull that my market demands. If they want a bull sired by Sanchez the Beefsteak, I will try to get it.

4. You left out the man who sells breeding stock to commercial cattle producers.

5. Disagree. Most seedstock producers are trying to run a balance sheet that turns a profit. Most will never sell a $10,000 animal. I have nothing against the high dollar club, in fact, may they prosper, but that is not the mainstream.

6. Perceived value is real valve when you convert it to currency.

7. Disagree. I know a lot of high profile PB breeders who average under $5000 a head for what they sell in the course of a year. I am small potatoes as a PB breeder but I have sold bulls for more than the average price the big names get. Commercial producers know they don't have to go to a NAME to get good livestock.

 

[Bcompton53]

1. Obviously EPDs aren't everything.

2. The club cattle folks, well, they are a breed of their own.

3. Then some (not all!) of the purebred guys all trying to use the bull with the biggest political name, in the hopes of getting a couple of those super high dollar sales. The most fragile group seems to be those name chasers? Right?

4. At the end of the day we are trying to either win cattle shows, or produce meat right?

5. So this crazy high dollar club is just one recession away from folks saying "well, at the end of the day, generally speaking, a good commercial steer has the same meat as a purebred that cost me 4 times the money to produce. Right?

6. There is additional value only because there is perceived additional value. A self perpetuating system. I am not saying that any of these groups is not profitable, clearly they are.

7. The big name purebred guy is profitable because they convinced a bunch of other purebred folks that his unproven bull is worth a bazilian dollars.

1. Agree. They fill a need. The world runs on metrics. How much horse power? How fast does it go? What does it weigh? Some people who expect EPDs to walk, talk, and dance live in lalaland. They expect perfection where none is intended. EPDs are a solution to putting metrics on performance, function and traits.

2. Club cattle is a real business. Just like prostitution and sitting in a bar drinking is real business. Not for everyone but it is business.

3. Disagree. Most purebred breeders are trying to meet the needs of the commercial producer. A breeder recognizes what his market demands. Then if he is smart, he will fill that need so he can exchange his stock for currency. I will use any bull that my market demands. If they want a bull sired by Sanchez the Beefsteak, I will try to get it.

4. You left out the man who sells breeding stock to commercial cattle producers.

5. Disagree. Most seedstock producers are trying to run a balance sheet that turns a profit. Most will never sell a $10,000 animal. I have nothing against the high dollar club, in fact, may they prosper, but that is not the mainstream.

6. Perceived value is real valve when you convert it to currency.

7. Disagree. I know a lot of high profile PB breeders who average under $5000 a head for what they sell in the course of a year. I am small potatoes as a PB breeder but I have sold bulls for more than the average price the big names get. Commercial producers know they don't have to go to a NAME to get good livestock.

Haha I knew someone would mention the breeding stock production. And I considered editing my post to add it, but then I thought, well, isn't that still meat production? If there was no market for meat, there would be no market for the aforementioned breeding stock. Either way, yes, there are those folks also.

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with in item 5, nor 7. 5 I'm simply saying that this high dollar club, which is not "most seedstock producers" (you changed the intent of my statement with your answer). Of course folks want to make a profit, that's not even really debatable, what I said is that it seems risky to produce something where the value is in perception, and maybe not so much reality. (of course there are exceptions). This applies also to item 6. Perceived value is only real as long as the perception lasts. Look at the price of gold, or stocks. One day things are great and there is an overinflated value placed on those items. The next day something bad happens, those values tank, and folks jump out of windows. Commercial producers deal with the same issue, but when my $1000 calf's value drops by 25%, that does suck, but not as much as when the big name bulls value drops by 25%. especially when my commercial calf will still have demand, when the big name bull could fall by the wayside.
item 7. My statement saying that the business model is very different, and I question the sanity of thinking that an unproven bull is worth 1.5 mil...It takes some serious weird idea of reality to think that if you put that bull in a herd of unmarked, unnamed, good bulls, that anyone would pick him out and say "he's worth 1.5 mil". I'm not sure how you could possibly "disagree" with my statement. I did not say "all purebred guys". I also didn't say that "all purebred guys are "big name"". I'm just still flabbergasted that these kind of dollar amounts could possibly be justified, but are clearly a target model for SOME of the purebred folks worlds. In other words, a big name, big money producer says, "wow, if I pump a bull full of feed, and make him look like a feed lot steer, give him a name that rhymes with SAV, someone will think he's worth a bunch more money!" It's the same folks who drive the fancy cars and say "look how nice of a car it is" while all of the reports place the fancy cars in the "most maintenance required" categories. Anyway, you are not the person I'm talking about here, at least not based on how you've described your operation. The fact that you're small potatoes, yet can sell great bulls, tells me that they are being valued based on more than a name, which supports my position exactly.

by the way, I still buy the same semen from the same big names as lots of other folks. My statements are really about the extreme end of the spectrum. Even still I see a couple bulls listed in semen suppliers catalogs, from Connealy for example, that I look at and think, without the connealy name, that bull wouldn't have a chance.

 

[Bright Raven]

1. Obviously EPDs aren't everything.

2. The club cattle folks, well, they are a breed of their own.

3. Then some (not all!) of the purebred guys all trying to use the bull with the biggest political name, in the hopes of getting a couple of those super high dollar sales. The most fragile group seems to be those name chasers? Right?

4. At the end of the day we are trying to either win cattle shows, or produce meat right?

5. So this crazy high dollar club is just one recession away from folks saying "well, at the end of the day, generally speaking, a good commercial steer has the same meat as a purebred that cost me 4 times the money to produce. Right?

6. There is additional value only because there is perceived additional value. A self perpetuating system. I am not saying that any of these groups is not profitable, clearly they are.

7. The big name purebred guy is profitable because they convinced a bunch of other purebred folks that his unproven bull is worth a bazilian dollars.

1. Agree. They fill a need. The world runs on metrics. How much horse power? How fast does it go? What does it weigh? Some people who expect EPDs to walk, talk, and dance live in lalaland. They expect perfection where none is intended. EPDs are a solution to putting metrics on performance, function and traits.

2. Club cattle is a real business. Just like prostitution and sitting in a bar drinking is real business. Not for everyone but it is business.

3. Disagree. Most purebred breeders are trying to meet the needs of the commercial producer. A breeder recognizes what his market demands. Then if he is smart, he will fill that need so he can exchange his stock for currency. I will use any bull that my market demands. If they want a bull sired by Sanchez the Beefsteak, I will try to get it.

4. You left out the man who sells breeding stock to commercial cattle producers.

5. Disagree. Most seedstock producers are trying to run a balance sheet that turns a profit. Most will never sell a $10,000 animal. I have nothing against the high dollar club, in fact, may they prosper, but that is not the mainstream.

6. Perceived value is real valve when you convert it to currency.

7. Disagree. I know a lot of high profile PB breeders who average under $5000 a head for what they sell in the course of a year. I am small potatoes as a PB breeder but I have sold bulls for more than the average price the big names get. Commercial producers know they don't have to go to a NAME to get good livestock.

Haha I knew someone would mention the breeding stock production. And I considered editing my post to add it, but then I thought, well, isn't that still meat production? If there was no market for meat, there would be no market for the aforementioned breeding stock. Either way, yes, there are those folks also.

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with in item 5, nor 7. 5 I'm simply saying that this high dollar club, which is not "most seedstock producers" (you changed the intent of my statement with your answer). Of course folks want to make a profit, that's not even really debatable, what I said is that it seems risky to produce something where the value is in perception, and maybe not so much reality. (of course there are exceptions). This applies also to item 6. Perceived value is only real as long as the perception lasts. Look at the price of gold, or stocks. One day things are great and there is an overinflated value placed on those items. The next day something bad happens, those values tank, and folks jump out of windows. Commercial producers deal with the same issue, but when my $1000 calf's value drops by 25%, that does suck, but not as much as when the big name bulls value drops by 25%. especially when my commercial calf will still have demand, when the big name bull could fall by the wayside.
item 7. My statement saying that the business model is very different, and I question the sanity of thinking that an unproven bull is worth 1.5 mil...It takes some serious weird idea of reality to think that if you put that bull in a herd of unmarked, unnamed, good bulls, that anyone would pick him out and say "he's worth 1.5 mil". I'm not sure how you could possibly "disagree" with my statement. I did not say "all purebred guys". I also didn't say that "all purebred guys are "big name"". I'm just still flabbergasted that these kind of dollar amounts could possibly be justified, but are clearly a target model for SOME of the purebred folks worlds. In other words, a big name, big money producer says, "wow, if I pump a bull full of feed, and make him look like a feed lot steer, give him a name that rhymes with SAV, someone will think he's worth a bunch more money!" It's the same folks who drive the fancy cars and say "look how nice of a car it is" while all of the reports place the fancy cars in the "most maintenance required" categories. Anyway, you are not the person I'm talking about here, at least not based on how you've described your operation. The fact that you're small potatoes, yet can sell great bulls, tells me that they are being valued based on more than a name, which supports my position exactly.

Thank you. Very nice reply.

What bothered me most was the broad characterization of PB breeders. I know many not much bigger than I. Fire Sweep Simmentals, Simme Valley Simmentals. Folks in that category who are not breeding cattle like they were on vacation in Las Vegas. I think the category you are talking about is a minority. I may be wrong because I don't run in that circle.

 

[Bcompton53]

1. Agree. They fill a need. The world runs on metrics. How much horse power? How fast does it go? What does it weigh? Some people who expect EPDs to walk, talk, and dance live in lalaland. They expect perfection where none is intended. EPDs are a solution to putting metrics on performance, function and traits.

2. Club cattle is a real business. Just like prostitution and sitting in a bar drinking is real business. Not for everyone but it is business.

3. Disagree. Most purebred breeders are trying to meet the needs of the commercial producer. A breeder recognizes what his market demands. Then if he is smart, he will fill that need so he can exchange his stock for currency. I will use any bull that my market demands. If they want a bull sired by Sanchez the Beefsteak, I will try to get it.

4. You left out the man who sells breeding stock to commercial cattle producers.

5. Disagree. Most seedstock producers are trying to run a balance sheet that turns a profit. Most will never sell a $10,000 animal. I have nothing against the high dollar club, in fact, may they prosper, but that is not the mainstream.

6. Perceived value is real valve when you convert it to currency.

7. Disagree. I know a lot of high profile PB breeders who average under $5000 a head for what they sell in the course of a year. I am small potatoes as a PB breeder but I have sold bulls for more than the average price the big names get. Commercial producers know they don't have to go to a NAME to get good livestock.

Haha I knew someone would mention the breeding stock production. And I considered editing my post to add it, but then I thought, well, isn't that still meat production? If there was no market for meat, there would be no market for the aforementioned breeding stock. Either way, yes, there are those folks also.

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with in item 5, nor 7. 5 I'm simply saying that this high dollar club, which is not "most seedstock producers" (you changed the intent of my statement with your answer). Of course folks want to make a profit, that's not even really debatable, what I said is that it seems risky to produce something where the value is in perception, and maybe not so much reality. (of course there are exceptions). This applies also to item 6. Perceived value is only real as long as the perception lasts. Look at the price of gold, or stocks. One day things are great and there is an overinflated value placed on those items. The next day something bad happens, those values tank, and folks jump out of windows. Commercial producers deal with the same issue, but when my $1000 calf's value drops by 25%, that does suck, but not as much as when the big name bulls value drops by 25%. especially when my commercial calf will still have demand, when the big name bull could fall by the wayside.
item 7. My statement saying that the business model is very different, and I question the sanity of thinking that an unproven bull is worth 1.5 mil...It takes some serious weird idea of reality to think that if you put that bull in a herd of unmarked, unnamed, good bulls, that anyone would pick him out and say "he's worth 1.5 mil". I'm not sure how you could possibly "disagree" with my statement. I did not say "all purebred guys". I also didn't say that "all purebred guys are "big name"". I'm just still flabbergasted that these kind of dollar amounts could possibly be justified, but are clearly a target model for SOME of the purebred folks worlds. In other words, a big name, big money producer says, "wow, if I pump a bull full of feed, and make him look like a feed lot steer, give him a name that rhymes with SAV, someone will think he's worth a bunch more money!" It's the same folks who drive the fancy cars and say "look how nice of a car it is" while all of the reports place the fancy cars in the "most maintenance required" categories. Anyway, you are not the person I'm talking about here, at least not based on how you've described your operation. The fact that you're small potatoes, yet can sell great bulls, tells me that they are being valued based on more than a name, which supports my position exactly.

Thank you. Very nice reply.

What bothered me most was the broad characterization of PB breeders. I know many not much bigger than I. Fire Sweep Simmentals, Simme Valley Simmentals. Folks in that category who are not breeding cattle like they were on vacation in Las Vegas. I think the category you are talking about is a minority. I may be wrong because I don't run in that circle.

Breeding like their were in Vegas, I like that. Also, I edited by statement there at the end before you replied, which reiterates that my comments are about the extreme end of the spectrum, not the average guy.

 

[Nesikep]

What I'm seeing with PB animals is the law of diminishing returns and exponential cost inflation
Anyone can see the difference between a $1000 bull and a $5000 bull, some will see the difference between a $5K bull and a $20K bull, and very few could pick out the difference between a $20K bull and $100K (or 1.5mil)

 

[Ebenezer]

What I'm seeing with PB animals is the law of diminishing returns and exponential cost inflation
Anyone can see the difference between a $1000 bull and a $5000 bull, some will see the difference between a $5K bull and a $20K bull, and very few could pick out the difference between a $20K bull and $100K (or 1.5mil)

It's a funny world when so many of those prices are for unproven stock and one of 100s or 1000s per year sired AI by the same bull(s). The price differences had to do something with algebra, EPDs, ABCs, IOUs, e-i-e-i-o's and such. You heard it here first. :lol:

 

[Ky hills]

What I'm seeing with PB animals is the law of diminishing returns and exponential cost inflation
Anyone can see the difference between a $1000 bull and a $5000 bull, some will see the difference between a $5K bull and a $20K bull, and very few could pick out the difference between a $20K bull and $100K (or 1.5mil)

It's a funny world when so many of those prices are for unproven stock and one of 100s or 1000s per year sired AI by the same bull(s). The price differences had to do something with algebra, EPDs, ABCs, IOUs, e-i-e-i-o's and such. You heard it here first. :lol:

I didnt do to good with algebra, too many variables. ;-) :lol2:

 

[sim.-ang.king]

What I'm seeing with PB animals is the law of diminishing returns and exponential cost inflation
Anyone can see the difference between a $1000 bull and a $5000 bull, some will see the difference between a $5K bull and a $20K bull, and very few could pick out the difference between a $20K bull and $100K (or 1.5mil)

It's a funny world when so many of those prices are for unproven stock and one of 100s or 1000s per year sired AI by the same bull(s). The price differences had to do something with algebra, EPDs, ABCs, IOUs, e-i-e-i-o's and such. You heard it here first. :lol:

Let me get this straight, you take the EPD times the ABC minus the IOU and divide the total by the e-i-e-i-o to get the valuation of an animal?
I dropped out of college so I need lots of help with my algebruh.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

You characters really want to stop the upward drift of registered stock prices?

Stop buying.