How about this Bull?

[artesianspringsfarm]

Alright, since I enjoy getting caught up in the praising or bashing of bulls, it's only fair that I throw one into the ring. Unlike others, I promise you can't hurt my feelings (I don't have any). Also unlike others, I am just going to post the pics and explain the environment to start. After that, I will tell you more about him and why he's here.

Feed, Age, & Environment: This guy is about 17 months old. No ration or creep, was given some corn to keep him coming up. In the last two months he has had nothing but good grass and clover and has been in with 10 ladies that were looking for love. These pics are definitely nor from a pro, just me pretending. That's all for now. What do you think?

Oh, and if you don't like him, here's what he thinks of you!

 

[Son of Butch]

I've seen bulls of this quality sell for $1950 - $2000
Has he had a breeding soundness exam?
His right testicle concerns me a bit...but he should handle 10 cows just fine.
Both New York and this bull are a long ways from Denver.

 

[3waycross]

I've seen bulls of this quality sell for $1950 - $2000
Has he had a breeding soundness exam?
His right testicle concerns me a bit...but he should handle 10 cows just fine.
Both New York and this bull are a long ways from Denver.

:lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :tiphat:

 

[artesianspringsfarm]

I've seen bulls of this quality sell for $1950 - $2000
Has he had a breeding soundness exam?
His right testicle concerns me a bit...but he should handle 10 cows just fine.
Both New York and this bull are a long ways from Denver.

:lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :tiphat:

:lol2: I won't argue with that either! Trust me, my ambitions in life don't ever have me running towards ever bringing anything to Denver to begin with. What makes you worry about his right nut? Also, I noticed in the pic that there seems to be a slight discolaration at the very bottom of his sack, but I think that may have been something in the picture. I plan on checking that later.

 

[Son of Butch]

What makes you worry about his right nut?

It appears to me to have a longer cylinder shape rather than a nice healthy 'football' shape.
Hands on exam would determine how much it varies from ideal.
Any shape other than the 'football' shape norm = lower fertility and I would not trust to handle more than a dozen cows....
without closer examination.

 

[Jake]

Not a bad young bull for how was developed. He does lack lower quarter and the natural thickness I like to see in the rear. Would be ok for a small herd but don't see him as a herd changer/improver.

This all said 17 months and green is a very tough age to judge bulls as they usually are fairly awkward looking.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

For his age and assuming his supplementation/plain of nutrition was moderate at best I see nothing wrong with him. Could he be bigger and fatter? Yes. Does he need to be? No. His pants will fill out as he matures. I develop my bulls very slowly and they don't look like real bulls until they are past 2 years of age. Phenotypically, he seems structurally sound, shows good secondary masculine character for his age and seems committed to his job. His testicles seem relatively symmetrical are a good shape and both epididymal tails seems normally developed. I would bet he would pass a BSE exam as far as semen quality goes. As an Angus bull, if being used as a maternal sire, I would not want to judge his quality until I was able to evaluate his dam and ultimately his daughters will tell the quality story from a maternal stand point and his male calves his value from a performance stand point. The farther you stay away from New York and from Denver the better! :tiphat:

 

[inyati13]

All these comments on Phenotype???? Come on guys. The best Phenotype the world has ever seen is not worth a cup of cold water unless we know his Genotype!!! Form a genetics standpoint, Genotype trumps Phenotype. What is a BULL? He is the messenger of what he cares in those microscopic sperm cells. He could look like the GRANDMASTER of the bovine race but if he carries shyt in those sperm cells, it is all in vain. Tell me why I am wrong!

 

[inyati13]

For his age and assuming his supplementation/plain of nutrition was moderate at best I see nothing wrong with him. Could he be bigger and fatter? Yes. Does he need to be? No. His pants will fill out as he matures. I develop my bulls very slowly and they don't look like real bulls until they are past 2 years of age. Phenotypically, he seems structurally sound, shows good secondary masculine character for his age and seems committed to his job. His testicles seem relatively symmetrical are a good shape and both epididymal tails seems normally developed. I would bet he would pass a BSE exam as far as semen quality goes. As an Angus bull, if being used as a maternal sire, I would not want to judge his quality until I was able to evaluate his dam and ultimately his daughters will tell the quality story from a maternal stand point and his male calves his value from a performance stand point. The farther you stay away from New York and from Denver the better! :tiphat:

Dylan, you hurt my feelings! I love Denver. Kills me every day I wake up. I love that City even if it is liberal!

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

All these comments on Phenotype???? Come on guys. The best Phenotype the world has ever seen is not worth a cup of cold water unless we know his Genotype!!! Form a genetics standpoint, Genotype trumps Phenotype. What is a BULL? He is the meesenger of what he cares in those microscopic sperm cells. He could look like the GRANDMASTER of the bovine race but if he carries shyt in those sperm cells, it is all in vain. Tell me why I am wrong!

Wasn't that the case I was trying to make for the full brothers who I watched sell at auction back in April where one brother sold for $4,500 or so and the other for something like $15,000?

Seemed to me they were both going to deliver the same "package" as far as the calves are concerned but at the time of the sale one of the brothers "looked" superior to the other.

 

[inyati13]

All these comments on Phenotype???? Come on guys. The best Phenotype the world has ever seen is not worth a cup of cold water unless we know his Genotype!!! Form a genetics standpoint, Genotype trumps Phenotype. What is a BULL? He is the meesenger of what he cares in those microscopic sperm cells. He could look like the GRANDMASTER of the bovine race but if he carries shyt in those sperm cells, it is all in vain. Tell me why I am wrong!

Wasn't that the case I was trying to make for the full brothers who I watched sell at auction back in April where one brother sold for $4,500 or so and the other for something like $15,000?

Seemed to me they were both going to deliver the same "package" as far as the calves are concerned but at the time of the sale one of the brothers "looked" superior to the other.

TT, I don't know much about breeding but I do know something about genetics. In genetics, the Phenotype is an expression of the genotype and the environmental influences. But without knowing the pedigree, you only have part of the story. It is essential to know what positive and negative traits are being hidden in that phenotype.

 

[artesianspringsfarm]

This is why I absolutely love this place (and I mean that seriously, no sarcasm). I try to get you all to bite on a phenotype based judging only, but you outsmart me. I guess maybe its because when someone boasts about what an amazing bull they have and post a pic that makes you choke on your coke, it's pretty fun to start bashing. Unfortunately in this case, Dylan basically ruined the fun by jumping ahead of me and arguing exactly what I would (and of course he also has the experience to back it up, which I don't).

So here's "the rest of the story." I have a small hodgepodge herd of PB angus. My end goal is about 50 cows and my breeding program for probably the next decade will be very maternally focused given what I'm starting with. I finish steers here for endusers so I don't need to worry about mashing the scales at an auction, but I do need to worry about getting a live, healthy calf every year that's raised well without me holding any hands.

All that being said, I know this guy doesn't look like something to take to Denver or put in the front pasture, but I bet he will next year and I look forward to finding out. His number is 17569248. His sire is Horse Butte 6141 of 3141, a doublebred Shoshone Encore bull that certainly looks the part.

His dam is a New Day daughter from CT's very own robert. He has some great cows doing well in a low input seedstock operation that has very similar conditions to my area, lots of snow for a long time. The dam has all kinds of capacity and was super correct. He culls heavily on disposition and that matters to me given that I move cows daily and my little herd could use some improvement there.

I think all the critiques are accurate, and frankly, I expected quite a few more. I don't think in the end he is gonna have a massive butt, but to me, he looks like some of the "cow maker" bulls that I see on the shiny 'puter screen. I'm a rookie, I know very little about the beef game, but I'm having fun doing it and I bet a few bucks that this guy will improve my herd so that I can retain as many heifers as possible from what I have and at the same time is a bull that I would love to have breed anything that I buy over the next couple of years so I can see if this whole maternal bull theory really plays out. Time will tell. I plan on keeping you all in the loop, for my fun more than anything else.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

All these comments on Phenotype???? Come on guys. The best Phenotype the world has ever seen is not worth a cup of cold water unless we know his Genotype!!! Form a genetics standpoint, Genotype trumps Phenotype. What is a BULL? He is the messenger of what he cares in those microscopic sperm cells. He could look like the GRANDMASTER of the bovine race but if he carries shyt in those sperm cells, it is all in vain. Tell me why I am wrong!

Okay, you are wrong! :lol2: :tiphat:

Actually you are right, assuming the sperm cell delivery mechanism is sound enough to get the job done, you are completely right! :tiphat:

 

[Dylan Biggs]

TT, I don't know much about breeding but I do know something about genetics. In genetics, the Phenotype is an expression of the genotype and the environmental influences. But without knowing the pedigree, you only have part of the story. It is essential to know what positive and negative traits are being hidden in that phenotype.

Even knowing the pedigree intimately for 5 or 6 generations of ones own cattle top and bottom it will always be a bit of a lottery. I like to think a bit less of a lottery, especially if line bred, but every throw of the dice is still a matter of chance to a degree. The genetic boogie man can hide in a genome for a long time.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

This is why I absolutely love this place (and I mean that seriously, no sarcasm). I try to get you all to bite on a phenotype based judging only, but you outsmart me. I guess maybe its because when someone boasts about what an amazing bull they have and post a pic that makes you choke on your coke, it's pretty fun to start bashing. Unfortunately in this case, Dylan basically ruined the fun by jumping ahead of me and arguing exactly what I would (and of course he also has the experience to back it up, which I don't).

So here's "the rest of the story." I have a small hodgepodge herd of PB angus. My end goal is about 50 cows and my breeding program for probably the next decade will be very maternally focused given what I'm starting with. I finish steers here for endusers so I don't need to worry about mashing the scales at an auction, but I do need to worry about getting a live, healthy calf every year that's raised well without me holding any hands.

All that being said, I know this guy doesn't look like something to take to Denver or put in the front pasture, but I bet he will next year and I look forward to finding out. His number is 17569248. His sire is Horse Butte 6141 of 3141, a doublebred Shoshone Encore bull that certainly looks the part.

His dam is a New Day daughter from CT's very own robert. He has some great cows doing well in a low input seedstock operation that has very similar conditions to my area, lots of snow for a long time. The dam has all kinds of capacity and was super correct. He culls heavily on disposition and that matters to me given that I move cows daily and my little herd could use some improvement there.

I think all the critiques are accurate, and frankly, I expected quite a few more. I don't think in the end he is gonna have a massive butt, but to me, he looks like some of the "cow maker" bulls that I see on the shiny 'puter screen. I'm a rookie, I know very little about the beef game, but I'm having fun doing it and I bet a few bucks that this guy will improve my herd so that I can retain as many heifers as possible from what I have and at the same time is a bull that I would love to have breed anything that I buy over the next couple of years so I can see if this whole maternal bull theory really plays out. Time will tell. I plan on keeping you all in the loop, for my fun more than anything else.

Time will tell, 10 years is just enough time for a good start! I wish you the very best of genetic luck in your endeavor, stick with your plan, I think you are off to a good start with what little I know about the genome of your bull. :tiphat:

 

[artesianspringsfarm]

Thanks Dylan. Don't worry, I'm under no grand allusions that I will have arrived anywhere in a decade. I'm just gonna put my head down and push towards a goal for that long and then reevaluate.

 

[NWMoAngus]

I have said this before. Here in the western corn belt near the edge of the great plains we live in an area where exceptional beef cattle, grass, grains and registered cattle breeders are plentiful. I am sorry to tell you that your bull would not likely have made it out of the steer feedlot. I think most easterners would profit from coming out west to the midwest or farther into the great plains to observe the breeding stock that is available.

Back in the 80s during the great farm recession land became cheap and there was an influx of farm immigrants from other areas of the U.S. A registered Angus operation in Massachusetts, located about 40 miles outside Boston sent their two sons and a herd of their cattle to Missouri. The boys were used to feeding apple cores and potato peelings to their calves. They had no idea how to feed or handle grains and their cattle were skinny. It didn't take long for them to figure things out and get their operation up to the mark. In time they turned what was initially a risky proposition into a success. We are blessed here.

 

[artesianspringsfarm]

Figured I would dredge this one up since it was a fun conversation when we initially had it and since he was posing today. Some didn't like this bull when I first posted and some still may not. Totally fine by me. I pointed out my goal with this bull and all my bulls for the near future is to grow my herd from within using bulls that will make good mommas in the future. Of course this means the first year I used him I got no heifers but this year I do have some yearling heifers of his that will be bred in a couple months. The jury is still out on him but I will say this: I have had 20+ calves from him with no pulls or calving issues, he has covered every cow I've put in front of him, his steers have done well and he is a pleasure to work around, moving every day in the summer easily and never causing any real issues. Here he is today:

Here is one of his heifers:

And here is one of his 90 day old calves out of a workhorse of a momma:

 

[ohiosteve]

I am not trying to be rude but I am not impressed by that bull at all.

 

[artesianspringsfarm]

I am not trying to be rude but I am not impressed by that bull at all.

No worries here Steve. That's kind of exactly my point in this thread. We all judge a bull on his looks, not on what he passes on when we are on forums like this. The interesting thing is in the dairy industry, most people couldnt tell you at ALL what the leading sires look like. They just know that this family tends to bring about this result, or they use their equivalent of EPD's. This bull isnt going to be most people's cup of tea, either by the numbers or with the eyeball test. I'm hoping that by the standard that I care most about, his calves that I retain, I will be happy. Time will tell.