Herf Bull Pic: Updated

Help Support CattleToday:

The calf now has a little more cover on him from the feed he had been getting and with more feed and more fat you can hide that faults he showed so clearly in his first set of pics to an even greater extent. The fact is structurally he is still the same calf, he is still pinched behind the shoulders, he still has a steep hip (not seen as easily now), he still has steep pasterns (although that is covered by grass in these pics.) He is still rather shortmuscled and he still has a decent set of testicles for a bull his age.

I guess everyone need to ask yourself what do you want from your seedstock producer, do you want someone who is perfectly happy to cover faults with fat and who tries to feed an ordinary calf into a presentable bull, or do you want someone who has a set standard that a calf need to meet that is enforced diligently and calves culled accordingly as your bull provider?
 
dun":38hx9zhr said:
It;s based simply on the fact that there are a lot better looking bulls around at that age. Any bull, or heifer for that matter, that you have to make excuses for or look for the good points just isn;t breeding material in my book.

I am not completely in the Gardiner camp of total reliance on EPDs; but as a general rule: performance trumps looks. The hog people and the chicken people figured that out 40 years ago. It is well past time for the cattle people to figure that one out too. I could be all wrong; but I kinda expect this one beats 70% of his peers on most things I can measure on paper. I MIGHT find myself in the camp of hating this bull when he turns 12 months too; but I don't see enough negative here and now to place this calf in the steer camp (whether that is 40% of the calf crop, 50%, 60%, or 75%). I wouldn't take him to any show (though admittedly I couldn't care less about who wins what at shows); but at this point I see no LOGICAL reason why he can't breed El Putzo's cows.
 
I could be all wrong; but I kinda expect this one beats 70% of his peers on most things I can measure on paper.

This reminds me of the local rugby team I am supporting in the Super 14 (the Aussies and Kiwis will know what I am talking about). After yet another horrible season for the Stormers the jokes were flying around about how they are going to replace the grass with paper at Newlands as the Stormers are by far the best South African team on paper. Pity they were useless on grass.
 
KNERSIE":2jeint3o said:
The calf now has a little more cover on him from the feed he had been getting and with more feed and more fat you can hide that faults he showed so clearly in his first set of pics to an even greater extent. The fact is structurally he is still the same calf, he is still pinched behind the shoulders, he still has a steep hip (not seen as easily now), he still has steep pasterns (although that is covered by grass in these pics.) He is still rather shortmuscled and he still has a decent set of testicles for a bull his age.

I guess everyone need to ask yourself what do you want from your seedstock producer, do you want someone who is perfectly happy to cover faults with fat and who tries to feed an ordinary calf into a presentable bull, or do you want someone who has a set standard that a calf need to meet that is enforced diligently and calves culled accordingly as your bull provider?

Knersie,

The pics were taken only about a week apart, so I doubt there is any extra discernable fat cover here, simply a different view. As for the second part of your post, I'll take it as a general statement and not a personal attack on me as a small seedstock producer, I hope it was meant that way. I do have standards although they may not be as clear to me as yours are to you, as I am still fairly new to the seedstock end of things. However, I have been picking my dads replacement heifers and helping pick his bulls for several generations and it appears to me that I do know a little bit about picking traits that work in my environment. I have proved this to myself by showing increases in quantitative traits (added WW,increased fertility and more profitability) and quality traits such easier keeping cows that do well on fescue only.

I do have a favor to ask of you though. Please post a pic of one of your 9 month old herd bull prospects within this post using a quote of my pic so that I can hopefully see more clearly the faults that you are speaking of. It doesn't need to be a recent pic, just one of a calf in the same age range so that I can compare apples to apples so to speak.
 
As for the second part of your post, I'll take it as a general statement and not a personal attack on me as a small seedstock producer, I hope it was meant that way.

I don't do personal attacks.

I'll post a few pics shortly, just need to find them on my PC. Not sure exactly what you mean with this?

Please post a pic of one of your 9 month old herd bull prospects within this post using a quote of my pic so that I can hopefully see more clearly the faults that you are speaking of
 
KNERSIE":1dt2xiop said:
As for the second part of your post, I'll take it as a general statement and not a personal attack on me as a small seedstock producer, I hope it was meant that way.

I don't do personal attacks.

I'll post a few pics shortly, just need to find them on my PC. Not sure exactly what you mean with this?

Please post a pic of one of your 9 month old herd bull prospects within this post using a quote of my pic so that I can hopefully see more clearly the faults that you are speaking of
I think he means post your pictures with a quote of his pic so he can compare the animals easier.
 
KNERSIE":1izizpw0 said:
As for the second part of your post, I'll take it as a general statement and not a personal attack on me as a small seedstock producer, I hope it was meant that way.

I don't do personal attacks.

I'll post a few pics shortly, just need to find them on my PC. Not sure exactly what you mean with this?

Please post a pic of one of your 9 month old herd bull prospects within this post using a quote of my pic so that I can hopefully see more clearly the faults that you are speaking of

I just meant so that I can see them side by side to help see them better.
 
Ok here goes...

All of these calves are calves from my summer calving season, so they are all born from mid October to mid November. No creep feed, raised on mostly native veld, weaned on irrigated kikuyu pasture at around 7-8 months old. I'll state where I have fed grain and how much or for how long if applicable.

Firstly your calf, you said you have fed him some grain after weaning, but haven't pushed him, right?
11U.jpg


After you've upped his ration to 15lbs a day if I remember correctly?
11ULeftSide.jpg


This calf hasn't received anything but pasture in his life, he was later pulled into the showstring and was shown two months after this pic was taken. He was sold to a commercial breeder as a yearling. He was just about 8 months old in this photo.
100_3463.jpg


This calf also hasn't been fed any grain, he has his good points, but I never saw him as anything more than a commercial bull prospect.
100_3730.jpg


This was a calf that I thought highly of, he had just gotten a nosering here and I was slowly starting him on feed, similar to what you have given your bullcalf in the first pic.
100_3600.jpg


This is the same calf 10 days later, still just on pasture with a little feed. Do you see how much difference 10 days can make when a little feed is offered?
100_3741-1.jpg


This bullcalf was also started on feed when the photo was taken, very early days in the feeding process as you can see he is still in the halterbreaking process. BTW of all these calves posted, this was the only one I deemed to be worthy of use in my herd. He sports a very heavy winter coat here as we had a very cold early winter in 2007. He is the older bull in the background of the second photo. The bullcalf infront in the second photo has been in a growth test and isn't a year old yet in the photo.
100_1260.jpg

100_5693.jpg
 
nice bulls as always Knersie. The second pic of El-putzo does look better but he does have faults.

That young bull with the halter on looks real good, how is he doing or did you sell him?
 
I've put my comments in Bold below to keep this more coherent.

KNERSIE said:
Ok here goes...

All of these calves are calves from my summer calving season, so they are all born from mid October to mid November. No creep feed, raised on mostly native veld, weaned on irrigated kikuyu pasture at around 7-8 months old. I'll state where I have fed grain and how much or for how long if applicable.

Firstly your calf, you said you have fed him some grain after weaning, but haven't pushed him, right? Correct
11U.jpg


After you've upped his ration to 15lbs a day if I remember correctly? Correct again
11ULeftSide.jpg


This calf hasn't received anything but pasture in his life, he was later pulled into the showstring and was shown two months after this pic was taken. He was sold to a commercial breeder as a yearling. He was just about 8 months old in this photo. Seems to be short coupled and a little light muscled. Although, and I hesitate to say this because I don't know the quality of the grass you speak of, for grass fed he does look OK. The reason I say that is because the grasses you have may be similar to the fescue I have or they could be as good as wheat, brome, or any other high quality forage. The difference could be huge. I also can't see much difference in masculinity between this calf and mine, just a lot more hair.
100_3463.jpg


This calf also hasn't been fed any grain, he has his good points, but I never saw him as anything more than a commercial bull prospect. Breaks behind the shoulders and has a steep hip. Two of the faults my bull has also.
100_3730.jpg


This was a calf that I thought highly of, he had just gotten a nosering here and I was slowly starting him on feed, similar to what you have given your bullcalf in the first pic. Can't see much difference in this pic and the next as you say other than I think he looks better in the first. I'm not real hip on how his belly turns upward so sharply in the scrotum area but that's being pretty picky. Could be a little deeper chested. Overall a thick, fine looking calf.
100_3600.jpg


This is the same calf 10 days later, still just on pasture with a little feed. Do you see how much difference 10 days can make when a little feed is offered? Actually, I can't see much difference, just as I couldn't see much difference in mine. How many lbs do you think your calf gained in those 10 days? Knowing the conditions and the feed mine was getting, I'd guess him to have gained between 20 and 25 lbs considering it was near 100 degrees every day between when I posted pics. I guess I'm not too good at judging weights because it's hard for me to see 20 lbs difference on an 800+ lb calf.
100_3741-1.jpg


This bullcalf was also started on feed when the photo was taken, very early days in the feeding process as you can see he is still in the halterbreaking process. BTW of all these calves posted, this was the only one I deemed to be worthy of use in my herd. He sports a very heavy winter coat here as we had a very cold early winter in 2007. He is the older bull in the background of the second photo. The bullcalf infront in the second photo has been in a growth test and isn't a year old yet in the photo. This calf is also what I would call light muscled. He also appears to be short coupled and steep hipped. I also don't care for his light orange color. I banded a Legend 242 son that had very similar phenotype to this one on the same day I took that first pic, only he was much darker red and had goggle eyes. Mine also lacked thickness over the top which I cannot tell on your pic due to the angle. Again, very hard to see much with all that hair.
100_1260.jpg


You speak above of the one bull being nothing more than a commercial bull prospect. I guess I should have made my intentions more clear as that is all I see my calf as. He has far too much white to do any seedstock producer any good in my opinion. I truly do believe that he could possibly work for someone who has a predominantly black herd and make there operation more profitable.
 
El_Putzo":1kr35puc said:
This calf is also what I would call light muscled. He also appears to be short coupled and steep hipped.

You would be wrong too. You can clearly make out the bulge of muscle that is his round, dittoe with the chuck, without an over the top shot preferably from behind I won't comment about the loin. "short coupled" is one of the most overused terms in livestock judging......I just don't see it here. "steep hipped" somebody has got to define that term for me. I don't know what you are talking about unless you want less slope between the hooks and the pins on both bulls in which case we are in serious disagreement. Yall are comparing too different types of Hereford here. I think I would rather have your bull's steers at the feedlot. They are growthier and according to the sire's carcass EPDs they will grade. That said, Knersie raises a deep chested, broody, early maturing, moderate framed, easy fleshing kind of Hereford that ought to produce easy keeping heifers that will holdup 12++ years under less than optimal conditions. I am not saying that Knersie's steers will be toads after 190 days in an American feedlot or that your bull's daughters will fall apart on pasture conditions just that his look more rugged and your look maybe more performance oriented. I don't know why this is worth arguing over.
 
That was quite entertaining, thank you!

Just for shites and giggles, here is the light muscled, short coupled, light orange calf with the steep hip after his second breeding season, 25 months old, never seen any grain after he was shown successfully as an 11 month old calf (bullcalf champion in a major regional show)
100_5180.jpg
 
I am not saying that Knersie's steers will be toads after 190 days in an American feedlot

I am pretty sure they will be toads after 190 days on feed, I also pity the poor feedlot owner who has to feed steers for 190 days. Our weaners go to the feedlot directly after weaning and gets fed for about 120 days before being slaughtered, they gain very well and fatten very well. Our beef are typically leaner than the American beef and our market seems to be more health conscious than in the USA.
 
KNERSIE":18k9kz0x said:
Our beef are typically leaner than the American beef and our market seems to be more health conscious than in the USA.

Everyone dies no matter how health conscious you are (or are not) so you might as well die eating a 17 ounce Prime T-bone, with a sweet potato soaked in butter, deep fried onion rings, apple pie with ice cream, and drinking a coke.
 
KNERSIE":2iv8e9xd said:
That was quite entertaining, thank you!

Just for shites and giggles, here is the light muscled, short coupled, light orange calf with the steep hip after his second breeding season, 25 months old, never seen any grain after he was shown successfully as an 11 month old calf (bullcalf champion in a major regional show)
100_5180.jpg

I applaud your obvious success at making your operation work on grass only in most cases. I believe I made mention of that before. But as you said, fat hides flaws, no matter if that fat is gained by grain or forage. Obviously an easy keeping animal is better than a hard keeper but again there could be worlds of difference in forage. In this pic he looks even more short coupled (sorry Brandon ;-) ) than the younger pic.....or could it just be the pic. :lol:

As far as his show career, again I applaud you, but I couldn't give a rats hind end about the show end of the business, or at least for right now. I suppose the best we can do for right now is agree to disagree somewhat. With that being said, I'm done on this topic. I'm sure others are getting tired of me by now.
 
I really dont think he is that short. He may be compared to Online but I think he has plenty of length ( sorry James)

James your bull looks OK but he is just OK. He has good # and will do someone OK but I dont think he is a Herd improver.JHH
 

Latest posts

Top