Heres a birth weight question

[backhoeboogie]

I am no expert, but my understanding is the umbilical begins to deteriorate at a certain age overdue and the calf's weight drops. Someone with exact knowledge may clarify this but I don't think the calf continues to grow at the same rate.

There is much to be said about shape too when it comes to birthing in my opinion.

 

[backhoeboogie]

If my bull goes to your pasture, more than likely his EPDs will change somewhat.

I said maybe someone with expertise will confirm my understanding based on much hearsay through the years. I am not going to go googling to see if the old timers were just a bunch of windbags. They weren't. There was probably a basis and someone probably already knows the truth.

 

[backhoeboogie]

doc, my apologies for sounding harsh. I mean no disrespect either and I have no expertise on the umbilical cord deteriorations. It is just something that's been told over and over and I offer it for you to consider.

Oldtimers knew what epds were , they just didn't call them that.

Good luck with your postulations. Perhaps they do have merit.

 

[highvoltagecattleco]

A bull wont get a bum rap as you say. If he is proven out over time. A lot of cattle guys with experience can tell you what they expect for gestation. My neighbor told me my cow breed to BR New Frontier would be a couple days late. He was right. He figured his cow bred to WAR Alliance would be over 7 days late. He was right again. Nothing beats experience and history. When bulls are used in multiple herds they begin to prove out. You will see some dramatic changes in EPDs. For example; Danny Boy (Angus Bull) had his milk EPD fall to the floor and his BW moved down a little. This is a bull who had already been use a lot. :cboy:

 

[TEhayandcattle]

Not only the bulls condition during conception, but the cows during key stages in development will definitely affect birthweight, I'll bet alot of good bulls have gotten a bad rap over circumstances that were not really genetic, like cows in oatpatches at the wrong time. I don't really pay attention to EPD's as much as conformation(in working clothes) I suspect many a producer to kind of highlight optimum evidence. I probably just don't do it because I am awful at recordkeeping myself, but I have bought and seen some high dollar bulls who I don't feel met up to claimed EPD's. Everyone has horror stories and everyone has great memories of individual bulls and it is usually circumstancial.

 

[Frankie]

I have noticed over time how people condem birth weights of anything in 90 lbs and up range.

There are factors that cause larger weights rather than genetics and more so than most are willing to admit.

If the normal cows gestation time table is 283 days and a cow goes 10 days over there is no acuracy to the weight. Why because a calf begins to grow in the cow at due date at the rate it will grow if outside the cow.

So if a cow is raising a calf with a gain of 2.75 pounds of gain per day. Then the calf is growing everyday past term it stays in the cow at the same 2.75 lbs per day. Or in the case of a calf 10 days past term 27 1/2 pounds heavier than the birth weight would have been on the 283 day gestation period.

Now heres another factor some cows have normal breed gestation tables of 287 288 days. So the breed with 283 days versus the breed with a 5 day longer gestation table is naturaly going to birth a heavier calf every time there is 1 or 5 days difference.

I have been reding much where there really is no reliance on days rather when the cow gets ready thats whats normal. Young cows birth early older cows tend to go past term.

Now all that being said how can you rely on birth weight in a epd record? Is there some place in the record keeping where calves born early or late that the actual term date is factored into epds? :idea:

EPDs are based on contemporary groups. Contemporary groups are animals that are managed the same and calves born within a specified window. In Angus, it's a 90 day window; I don't know about other breeds. Yes, management plays a part, but using contemporary groups takes a lot of the variation out of the mix.

I have trouble with your claim that a calf will start growing at a faster rate after the normal gestation rate. Why would it? Growth is usually related to nourishment and it's not getting any more inside that cow than it did at 200 days. Am I confused?

I think Limousin have a gestation length EPD. With our Angus I expect a mature cow to calve 2-5 days earlier than the 283 day gestation chart stuck on the refrigerator. We start watching heifers two weeks early. But a friend of mine recently told me her Angus cattle almost always went past 283 days. Management? I don't know. I do know that every BR Midland calf we've had was born much earlier than expected. And most of them were small. I sure hope they grow.

 

[Herefords.US]

While I have no data to back it up, I question your premise that a calf will grow in the womb at the same rate he would if he was outside during those final days.

If calves grew at that suggested 2.75 lb/day rate over the last month prepartum, they'd all be too big for the cows to have.

George

 

[Cowdirt]

Whatsupdoc, people who work closely with the calculations of epds and folks who use them to a great extent in their herd will readily admit there are some issues with them. They are not perfect but they are the best prediction tool that is available. They don't replace good judgment but supplement it. Since they are based upon statistics, the more data points that are entered, the more reliable they become. We all know not to rely too heavily upon an animal with a small amount of data. The reporting errors and other variables become quite insignificant as the numbers increase. JMHO.

 

[lakading]

Birth weight is something like 40% heritable. That leaves like 60% that isn't genetic. Not to mention that both the sire and dam are figured into the 40% that is.

 

[ANAZAZI]

That is true Lakading. and the shape of the calf differs within the same birthweight, for example; blondes are born much easyer than chars with the same birthweight because bone structure is much ligther and the calf is several inches longer.

 

[George Monk]

I would agree that the bull gets the bum rap. Calving problems are associated with the bull and he alone is responsible for changing the bw. My opinion is that if you have a cow that has trouble having a 100lb calf that cow should be culled. If we put as much effort into increase the calving ability as we do reducing calf weight we would not have people chasing a fad (words of the mighty CB) like BW.

"While we are firm believers in breeding heifers to low BW EPD bulls, it seems
to us our breed has gotten a bit carried away with the concept, when breeding
mature cows." This is my position on BW. I took the quote from Sydenstricker's sale catalog.

 

[Avalon]

I would agree that the bull gets the bum rap. Calving problems are associated with the bull and he alone is responsible for changing the bw. My opinion is that if you have a cow that has trouble having a 100lb calf that cow should be culled. If we put as much effort into increase the calving ability as we do reducing calf weight we would not have people chasing a fad (words of the mighty CB) like BW.

"While we are firm believers in breeding heifers to low BW EPD bulls, it seems
to us our breed has gotten a bit carried away with the concept, when breeding
mature cows." This is my position on BW. I took the quote from Sydenstricker's sale catalog.

Great post. Lends credence to proper structure.

 

[KMacGinley]

2.75 lbs per day??????? :shock: Puts your little tiff with Doc in perspective.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Limis gestation is 286 days Limis do have gestation epd. Some limi bulls do have longer and shorter gestations. The calving ease EPD's are alot more important to me than birth weight EPD's. If a Limi bull has a CED of 5 to 7 and a BW EPD of 3 to 4.5 I don't worry about calving problems. But if i had a heifer with a CEM EPD of 2 I would be scared to death of above bull. You need to balance Bulls and cows EPD'S . I always try to stay in the middle with both bulls and cows. Usally i don't have any troulbe calving.

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

2.75 lbs per day??????? :shock: Puts your little tiff with Doc in perspective.

No way I just tossed out a figure.

But for the record I HAVE calves that have had weights processed at birth on certifyed scales, and then reweighed mos later gain over 3lbs a day on mamas milk.

Also no one is being out $5000.00 a pop based on my posting it was a question based on a statment made by a vet who does much embryo work and travels to do bse tests in several southern states so go figure.

Now as you wanting to stand up for doc I have never read where he did not have two feet. So let him fight his own battle and defend himself being as he has the ability to be-little people and readily does at the drop of a hat.



Its not a tiff by the way its questions deserving of answers :!:

I'm guessing the astonishment would be over a calf IN the womb gaining 2.75# per day, not a calf on milk. I've owned a herd bull before who had an adg on grass and milk of 3.58.

I do not think that term or not term they grow that fast in the womb. I've got a cow who has always gone overdue, and typically has a calf in the low to mid nineties. Her first calf, a bull, was at least a week overdue, and weighed 95#. Unassisted. I wasn't even home. He went on to go on a herd of crossbred cows, and has never thrown problem calvers. My brother after a number of years now has him. Had a bull calf born yesterday out of a beefmaster cross cow that weighed about 70#.

I firmly believe that the cow has more to do with BW than the bull. I've got another cow that has never varied more than a pound from 75# calves. She's never overdue to date.

Research shows that the colder the winter, the heavier the calves, and fall calves are lighter than spring calves as a rule. The official AHA gestation is 283 days, but I have seen Hereford bulls advertised as throwing short gestation calves. My Flying G bull tended to throw shorter gestation calves than any others I've used. His half brother that I now own is still waiting on his first batch, so we'll see how he does.

 

[Herefords.US]

I'm guessing the astonishment would be over a calf IN the womb gaining 2.75# per day, not a calf on milk.

I'd be surprised if an average calf gained 10 lb. in the last 10 days prepartum but I have no actual data to back that up and I haven't been able to find any.

That comes from my experience of seeing several hundred calves born where we knew the breeding date, thus the "expected" delivery date, and we never saw any appreciable difference in calf size unless the calf was more than a couple of weeks premature.

George

 

[WAguy]

Amateur here, so excuse my questions. Maybe this has already been said, but let me try it another way.

I don't get the original point, suggesting the bull gets a bum rap on BW EPDs if gestations are longer. But if the bull is possibly the genetic cause of that longer gestation, how is that a bum rap? Yes, the cows may be partly to blame, but that is so with all EPDs. Seems that's why you use lots of cows to see overall what the bull's effect is.

Obviously longer gestations increase BW. Other than the concern about BW, is there a reason to have a gestation EPD? Seems if the only purpose is the gestation effect on BW, the BW EPD would suffice.

I would think you'd also want to throw the bull's actuall BW into the mix. I've looked at the red angus, Above and Beyond, whose BW was 58. I would think it hard to get a 90 pound calf out of him?

I don't know what to make of it, but I have a Jersey/Lowline angus cow who's been bred to Hereford, Jersey, and Lowline bulls. All 3 calves have come at exactly 270 days, in the afternoon, just before I come home from work. In the months of July, June and May.

 

[Tod Dague]

Just something to add to the mix. Some cows have the ability to limit the size of the calf in utero, Brahman are well know for this.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

I'd be surprised if an average calf gained 10 lb. in the last 10 days prepartum but I have no actual data to back that up and I haven't been able to find any.

My vet always uses 1 lb per day when overdue. No calf will grow at a rate of 2.75 lbs/day in the womb, mainly because no freshened calf grows at 2.75 lbs/day. Fresh calves in their first month wouldn't even be hitting 2.75 lbs/day at the end of their first month.

Rod

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

I'd be surprised if an average calf gained 10 lb. in the last 10 days prepartum but I have no actual data to back that up and I haven't been able to find any.

My vet always uses 1 lb per day when overdue. No calf will grow at a rate of 2.75 lbs/day in the womb, mainly because no freshened calf grows at 2.75 lbs/day. Fresh calves in their first month wouldn't even be hitting 2.75 lbs/day at the end of their first month.

Rod

I must respectfully disagree. I've had a few that did.