Herd Management

[KNERSIE]

Some pictures from today of my fat, dairy type Herefords:

You know what I meant.

 

[SRBeef]

Some pictures from today of my fat, dairy type Herefords:

You know what I meant.

I know - you just gave me a chance to post some pictures. And you are correct but I am looking for "good milkers" who can raise a calf quickly. Mine will be harvested for freezer beef at between 13 and 14 months of age. This is a different system than most.

I do need to guard against "single trait selection" however (which is I think what you are afraid of here) and keep phenotype etc in the selection mix.

One other piece of data I did not mention in my selection criteria posted above somewhere is the dressed beef (in the box) as a percent of hanging carcass weight. I want steers that mature/put on muscle early, not just big boned.

Lots of balls in the air at the same time. This is what makes cattle breeding still as much of an art as a science with experienced breeders like you being very important in the process. Jerry Huth was telling me about how if you focus on one trait only, many of these traits are counteracting (I forget the exact word he used, maybe "antagonistic"?) and like squeezing a balloon: you squeeze it to the shape you want on one end and it squirts in an unwanted direction someplace else... or something like that.

Thanks for your input, Harley.

Jim

 

[KNERSIE]

I want steers that mature/put on muscle early, not just big boned.

Without adequate bone you'll never get a well muscled early maturing beef. Don't be lured into the more bone to meat ratio BS some other breeds use as their singular claim to fame.

Lots of balls in the air at the same time. This is what makes cattle breeding still as much of an art as a science with experienced breeders like you being very important in the process. Jerry Huth was telling me about how if you focus on one trait only, many of these traits are counteracting (I forget the exact word he used, maybe "antagonistic"?) and like squeezing a balloon: you squeeze it to the shape you want on one end and it squirts in an unwanted direction someplace else... or something like that.

Exactly, the middle of the road is the place to be if you want to saty out of the ditch.

The problem I see with your criteria (and basically every engineer, mathematician, scientist, etc that I know who has a cattle habit) is that you tend to focus too much on the easier part for you to comprehend, ie everything that you can put on a spreadsheet and use a formula on.

 

[3waycross]

I want steers that mature/put on muscle early, not just big boned.

Without adequate bone you'll never get a well muscled early maturing beef. Don't be lured into the more bone to meat ratio BS some other breeds use as their singular claim to fame.

Lots of balls in the air at the same time. This is what makes cattle breeding still as much of an art as a science with experienced breeders like you being very important in the process. Jerry Huth was telling me about how if you focus on one trait only, many of these traits are counteracting (I forget the exact word he used, maybe "antagonistic"?) and like squeezing a balloon: you squeeze it to the shape you want on one end and it squirts in an unwanted direction someplace else... or something like that.

Exactly, the middle of the road is the place to be if you want to saty out of the ditch.

The problem I see with your criteria (and basically every engineer, mathematician, scientist, etc that I know who has a cattle habit) is that you tend to focus too much on the easier part for you to comprehend, ie everything that you can put on a spreadsheet and use a formula on.

No offense Harley but judging from the pictures he is doing pretty good with the Phenotype aspect also. Having said that; based on his criteria I would be using hi growth angus, or balancer genetics(ie. high YW and marbling) on those good herefords for a terminal product, and breeding straight hereford to my best cows for replacements. Of course that's just my 2 cents and probably not worth much :cowboy:

 

[Stocker Steve]

We do both. Keep our own heifers and buy some too. For the most part, I find that more of our own heifers tend to stay in the herd longer.

Same here.
When I retain shiny smaller framed heifers I very seldom cull one. They are adapted to the way I operate.
When I buy a group wf heifers I get an occasional one with attitude and several poor milkers. These are not reputation cattle so I have to factor this into the price.

 

[SRBeef]

I guess it is still related o the original poster's "herd management" question, but one of the benefits of culling by numbers, size, etc. is that I am also getting down to a herd of cows that I really "LIKE". I was thinking this morning that selling of some of the larger, louder, more skitish cows is leaving me with a group I can walk comfortably around and am pleased with their condition and direction.

May be odd to hear about "liking" a cow or bull but it is a lot more pleasant (as well as easier and safer) to work around some cattle than others.

A side note about the pictures above, one advantage to the Hereford breed in my low-input, no-buildings, outwinter in the woods in WI situation is the way they grow a heavy warm coat in the winter than shed it and slick up so they can take the heat of the summer also. 3way, this is one reason why I am going to stay straight Hereford. Using a different bull for terminal calves might be a good idea but I don't really have the acres or facilities to keep those all straight.

I know I as an engineer tend to focus on numbers but I am learning the other stuff too. If anything I think too many cow/calf folks have not paid enough attention to numbers. jmho.

Jim

 

[3waycross]

I guess it is still related o the original poster's "herd management" question, but one of the benefits of culling by numbers, size, etc. is that I am also getting down to a herd of cows that I really "LIKE". I was thinking this morning that selling of some of the larger, louder, more skitish cows is leaving me with a group I can walk comfortably around and am pleased with their condition and direction.

May be odd to hear about "liking" a cow or bull but it is a lot more pleasant (as well as easier and safer) to work around some cattle than others.

A side note about the pictures above, one advantage to the Hereford breed in my low-input, no-buildings, outwinter in the woods in WI situation is the way they grow a heavy warm coat in the winter than shed it and slick up so they can take the heat of the summer also. 3way, this is one reason why I am going to stay straight Hereford. Using a different bull for terminal calves might be a good idea but I don't really have the acres or facilities to keep those all straight.

I know I as an engineer tend to focus on numbers but I am learning the other stuff too. If anything I think too many cow/calf folks have not paid enough attention to numbers. jmho.

Jim

Good post Jim, actually I was thinking AI for those terminal calves sumthin like this guy http://www.cattlemensconnection.com you pretty much get it all and the calving ease is there too. Look at his YW number and the calves would be 3waycross for maximum heterosis. You will need to go to that link and click on balancers and then click on Kruggerand.

 

[Oldtimer]

I guess it is still related o the original poster's "herd management" question, but one of the benefits of culling by numbers, size, etc. is that I am also getting down to a herd of cows that I really "LIKE". I was thinking this morning that selling of some of the larger, louder, more skitish cows is leaving me with a group I can walk comfortably around and am pleased with their condition and direction.
Jim

AMEN-- been doing the same for the last several years- after years of chasing the continentals and "bigger, better, fasters even of the angus breed-- and life is much easier- and I'm much happier with standing behind the seedstock cattle we sell.....

 

[3waycross]

I guess it is still related o the original poster's "herd management" question, but one of the benefits of culling by numbers, size, etc. is that I am also getting down to a herd of cows that I really "LIKE". I was thinking this morning that selling of some of the larger, louder, more skitish cows is leaving me with a group I can walk comfortably around and am pleased with their condition and direction.
Jim

AMEN-- been doing the same for the last several years- after years of chasing the continentals and "bigger, better, fasters even of the angus breed-- and life is much easier- and I'm much happier with standing behind the seedstock cattle we sell.....

How come when it is put like that it sounds a lot like "angus bashing" only with the name changed. Not all continentals are bigger but that old knock sure comes in handy when someone wants to bash them.
All I was suggesting is a 3/4 British 3waycross would give him a better chance of having freezer ready beef at 12 to 14 months than a slower maturing straight bred Hereford. and for the record I am not knocking either of the british breeds involved.

I never suggested that it would be the way to raise his own replacment heifers actually just the opposite.

 

[SRBeef]

3way - thanks for the idea and link. That Krugerand really looks good. I didn't know there were black Gelbvieh's. One problem for me is the AI. There is just no way I can do AI in my situation. I appreciate the thought. I don't think Oldtimer was necessarily bashing anyone or any breed, just agreeing there is joy in getting rid of ones you don't like especially in a small herd, as I read it.

As far as the "slower-maturing straight Herefords" maybe what I am doing is also selecting for the earlier maturing Herefords.

Jim

 

[3waycross]

3way - thanks for the idea and link. That Krugerand really looks good. I didn't know there were black Gelbvieh's. One problem for me is the AI. There is just no way I can do AI in my situation. I appreciate the thought. I don't think Oldtimer was necessarily bashing anyone or any breed, just agreeing there is joy in getting rid of ones you don't like especially in a small herd, as I read it.

As far as the "slower-maturing straight Herefords" maybe what I am doing is also selecting for the earlier maturing Herefords.

Jim

Maybe so. You sure have one of the better lookin bunches of cows I have seen posted here. For what it's worth for me there is nothing better than culling and improving.
I wish you the best..........BTW there are lots of Black Gelbvieh's. but the truth is I love my reds and would only raise them if I could get away with it.

 

[KNERSIE]

Vic, heerfords were never meant to be a sower maturing breed, quite the contrary. As soon as you add extra growth, whther its from hybrid vigour or complimentary breeding with a continental you're almost always going to add time to the finishing period.

On your previous comment, you probably didn't read the lead-up to my comment.

 

[3waycross]

Vic, heerfords were never meant to be a sower maturing breed, quite the contrary. As soon as you add extra growth, whther its from hybrid vigour or complimentary breeding with a continental you're almost always going to add time to the finishing period.

On your previous comment, you probably didn't read the lead-up to my comment.

apparently I didn't :mrgreen:

 

[SRBeef]

Vic, heerfords were never meant to be a slower maturing breed, quite the contrary. As soon as you add extra growth, whther its from hybrid vigour or complimentary breeding with a continental you're almost always going to add time to the finishing period.

I was thinking the same thing myself. When I can get a true 205 day adjusted weaning weight on a straight Hereford of 737 lb (from one of my target 1200-1300 lb cows) with no creep how much faster do I need? Most of my steers were in the lower 600 lb range but if I select for and build from my cows I am fairly certain I can get most of them to 1100 lb or close off of grazing corn within my 13-14 month harvest window.

My engineer's math:

13.5 months = 405 days. If I can get to say 650 lb avg at 205 days, 1100 lb goal - 650 lb at 205 days = 450 lb needed after weaning.

So to make my 1100 lb at 13.5 mo (405 days), I need to add 450lb in 200 days after weaning.

450lb/200 days = 2.25 lb/day average daily gain after weaning is required to hit the target.

In practice, they will be under that for the first 30 days after weaning but should be over that 2.25 lb/day once they hit the corn.

I'm going to try to put them on the corn today. I'd like to weigh them but my scale is buried under a lot of snow and more predicted for this afternoon so I better get moving! We'll see how it goes.

Jim

 

[3waycross]

Vic, heerfords were never meant to be a sower maturing breed, quite the contrary. As soon as you add extra growth, whther its from hybrid vigour or complimentary breeding with a continental you're almost always going to add time to the finishing period.
I still fail to see how a 3/4 Brisish crossbred with 1/4 GV will finish slower than a purebred Herf. Frankly it just doesn't make sense to me. The GV should make them mature sooner and still retain good marbling with the other 3/4's

On your previous comment, you probably didn't read the lead-up to my comment.

Do you mean the Dairy comment. If that is sure not what I was suggesting. Take a look at the Kruggerand bull and please explain to me how that would give him a framier and slower maturing animal.

I need to understand this.

 

[KNERSIE]

Vic, heerfords were never meant to be a sower maturing breed, quite the contrary. As soon as you add extra growth, whther its from hybrid vigour or complimentary breeding with a continental you're almost always going to add time to the finishing period.
I still fail to see how a 3/4 Brisish crossbred with 1/4 GV will finish slower than a purebred Herf. Frankly it just doesn't make sense to me. The GV should make them mature sooner and still retain good marbling with the other 3/4's

On your previous comment, you probably didn't read the lead-up to my comment.

Do you mean the Dairy comment. If that is sure not what I was suggesting. Take a look at the Kruggerand bull and please explain to me how that would give him a framier and slower maturing animal.

I need to understand this.

Jim aims for 1200lb cows that will produce calves that can be harvested off grazing corn at 13 months of age. The frame score he aims for is between a frame 4 and a 5, Krugerrand is a 6.5, what exactly don't you understand?

 

[3waycross]

Vic, heerfords were never meant to be a sower maturing breed, quite the contrary. As soon as you add extra growth, whther its from hybrid vigour or complimentary breeding with a continental you're almost always going to add time to the finishing period.
I still fail to see how a 3/4 Brisish crossbred with 1/4 GV will finish slower than a purebred Herf. Frankly it just doesn't make sense to me. The GV should make them mature sooner and still retain good marbling with the other 3/4's

On your previous comment, you probably didn't read the lead-up to my comment.

Do you mean the Dairy comment. If that is sure not what I was suggesting. Take a look at the Kruggerand bull and please explain to me how that would give him a framier and slower maturing animal.

I need to understand this.

Jim aims for 1200lb cows that will produce calves that can be harvested off grazing corn at 13 months of age. The frame score he aims for is between a frame 4 and a 5, Krugerrand is a 6.5, what exactly don't you understand?

Harley the last thing I want to dois get into a long drawn out pi$$ing contest with you over this but the Gelbvieh Assn has NO OFFICIAL frame score for Tau Mr Krugerrand. The info you quote is only part of his stats from Cattleman's connection. For the record the GV assn tells me that his offsrping that have actually been scored are running between 5.5 and 6.1 FS. To me at least it suggests that when crossed on a FS 4.4 to 5.0 herf cow that the resulting offspring will not be a bunch of slow maturing monsters but based on his other stats they should be early maturing and profitable calves . Keep in mind that they are still 1/2 fs 4-5 herfs. What I see a bull like that adding is a better yield grade and more lbs of beef at the same age.BTW here are all of the numbers from that website.
Registration Number: 904079
Born: 2/20/04
Birth Weight: 78
205 Day Adj. Wt.: 813
365 Day Adj. Wt.: 1383
Yearling Frame: 6.5
Yearling Scrotal: 41.0 cm
Cane Code: 16GV1222
For the record I have not seen him in person but have talked to those who have and he is as wide as he is tall.