Herd Management

[regenwether]

I'm someone who keeps back Heifer's back every year. Some people prefer to purchase bred Heifer's. Doesn't matter the cost is just about a wash.

So I've got a Neighbor (I bet everybody here has the same type of neighbor) who has been complaining the last few years that bred replacement heifers are too expensive. So he has not been buying anything. He still has been culling a few in his herd every year. Well this was the fall when he had to sell a big % of his herd because they were getting too old. Now he is "under the gun" to buy a bunch of Heifer's. Guess what..he says their too expensive :roll: . He knows he doesn't have a choice and must "pull the trigger".

Why do people do this? Perhaps it is the banker but I don't think it is.

So I've got a few questions. What % replacement rate should a person follow? Wouldn't it be a bit lower if you purchase bred Heifer's?

What should be your average age of your cow herd?

We all have a few 12+ yr old cows that keep weaning heavy calves and seem to breed back. At what point do you sell her?

At the end of the day we are selling not blk calves (sorry couldn't resist) but LBS. I think we have to look at whole herd average weaning wt. and the salvage wt of them old cows.

 

[Angus Cowman]

I have always bought hfrs but decided to keep some last yr and this yr with the prices hfrs are bringing now I am ahead of the curve 2 yrs ago I wasn't as the cost was basically a wash
as for culling It seems like I cull about 3% pr yr on faults( lameness,poor milkers, bad attitude,etc etc.)
as for average culling age on what I want to maintain is about 8 or 9yrs of age the cows are still in good shape and bring good money when they are sold
I am still building and it seems like I keep about 15% of my hfrs back so I am still doing ok on increasing the herd
my cows are from 2 to 6yr olds
as for being lower % if I was purchasing hfrs instead of keeping I would say it would be higher in my case cause I can usually get a better deal buying by the potload

you are correect in looking at how good a calf the cow produces and how much that cow will bring by the LB
you should be able to sell a cull cow and her weaned calf and pay for a bred hfr or a 1st calf pair

 

[I luv herfrds]

We have always kept back our own heifers. The number we keep depends upon the number born. We actually had a year where we kept all the heifers except for 2 or 3. Had an 80% bull calf crop that year.

Don't know if the neighbor is running a terminal herd and just sells everything as a feeder.

 

[angus9259]

Technically, it depends on the sale prices I think. Live "stock" is like paper "stocks" in that regard. Livestock owners today shouldn't be ashamed of having their numbers run lower than normal because prices are so high - technically, I should be selling more even though the quality is there. The prices will come back down. Expand then. It diverts from my usual "by high - sell low" business plan but we'll try this and see how it turns out.

 

[novaman]

The problem I see with buying heifers is you don't know for sure what you're getting. If you keep back your own replacements you have a pretty good idea what kind of genetics you are working with as you know the mother and the bull. I work too hard to improve my herd to gamble by buying somebody else's heifers and hope they work as good as they look.

I'm willing to bet your replacement % would be higher on boughten animals because you would likely have a higher culling rate in order to weed out the poor doers.

Average age of the cow herd isn't something I necessarily worry about unless it is becoming excessively high or low. If your average age is on the low side that is telling me you are probably having to cull aggressively and your costs are higher to bring in or raise more heifers. If the average age is getting high it might be a sign that you are doing a good job raising good quality cows and they are simply hanging around longer. The problem is those older cows will eventually start to have problems and at some point you may have a big dip in cow numbers if/when culling starts to ramp up.

On beef cows I don't worry about the age of a cow until she starts getting to that 10+ stage. Then it becomes a situation where you need to keep a close eye because they can go downhill in a hurry. I agree there are many times where cows reach 12-15 years of age with no problems but when you reach that territory there seems to be a lot of freak things that can happen and I always feel bad about having to put a good ole girl down because I kept her too long.

 

[Angus Cowman]

The problem I see with buying heifers is you don't know for sure what you're getting. If you keep back your own replacements you have a pretty good idea what kind of genetics you are working with as you know the mother and the bull. I work too hard to improve my herd to gamble by buying somebody else's heifers and hope they work as good as they look.

I'm willing to bet your replacement % would be higher on boughten animals because you would likely have a higher culling rate in order to weed out the poor doers.

Average age of the cow herd isn't something I necessarily worry about unless it is becoming excessively high or low. If your average age is on the low side that is telling me you are probably having to cull aggressively and your costs are higher to bring in or raise more heifers. If the average age is getting high it might be a sign that you are doing a good job raising good quality cows and they are simply hanging around longer. The problem is those older cows will eventually start to have problems and at some point you may have a big dip in cow numbers if/when culling starts to ramp up.

On beef cows I don't worry about the age of a cow until she starts getting to that 10+ stage. Then it becomes a situation where you need to keep a close eye because they can go downhill in a hurry. I agree there are many times where cows reach 12-15 years of age with no problems but when you reach that territory there seems to be a lot of freak things that can happen and I always feel bad about having to put a good ole girl down because I kept her too long.

on the first statement if buying hfrs you need to buy from a known source and under similar managemnet as your own
if you buy quality hfrs from a reputable person with similar management then No the culling % isn't any higher for bought instead of raised
as for cow age I look at selling a cow when she is still marketable instead of used up so I therefore get a better price for her than if I waited another 2 or 3 yrs to sell her and gamble on her making me anymore money than what she already has and has nothing to do with my culling %
I use 8 as a guideline because around here a good 8 or 9 yr old cow bred cow will still bring around $1000 and her calf should have brought 750-800 so if you spend $1400 on a bred hfr then you are still ahead as you sold that cow and calf for what she originally cost plus pd for her upkeep for the yr that you sold her
plus you have alot less risk in that 8 or 9 yr old cow developing a problem than you do a 10+ yr old cow
also on the culling % I know several people around here that just let mother nature do their culling it doesn't mean their cows are any better than mine or yours it is just their management style is No management and some of the cows that die may have been open for a yr or so before they ever realize it so because they have an older herd of cows and I have a younger more productive herd with the way you look at it they have a better herd because they didn't cull anything

 

[novaman]

so because they have an older herd of cows and I have a younger more productive herd with the way you look at it they have a better herd because they didn't cull anything

I'm not sure how you came up with that idea by what I posted. I didn't say culling is a bad thing and I didn't say it was a good thing. I never said an older herd is better and I never said a younger herd was better. In fact I believe I made it fairly clear that I prefer to be at a happy medium on average age.

 

[SRBeef]

I have small herd but am building. I have bought a few registered heifers to get a good variety of female genetics to go with my bull genetics and establish a small registered group.

From this point on though I do not see myself buying any more heifers or cows but growing from what I have. I believe Nova hit it on the head: when you raise them yourself you know what the characteristics of your different cow "families" are - at least you should. Ones you buy are much more unkowns.

Once you start keeping good data on your herd you know far more about them than about the ones you might buy. So I will be building from within from now on.

As far as age of herd and when to cull cows, I plan to cull every fall right after fall workup and preg check.

#1 reason for culling is anything that is open at preg check. I don't care how old they are if they can give me a good calf in the spring. But if they are open in November at preg check time, they go for an immediate trailer ride, no exceptions.

More than cull by age I am going to cull to reduce my average mature cow size gradually over time. I plan on keeping more heifers from my target 1200 lb cows than my largest cows and each fall after weaning sell maybe my largest 2 or 3 cows. So I may keep 4-6 heifers each year and sell my 2-3 largest cows.

Weaning weight ratio (calf adj 205 day ww/cow wt at weaning) is another factor in deciding who to cull each fall.

I will keep a cow, almost regardless of her size, if she can maintain a ww ratio above 50%. I will cull a cow, regardless of size, if she can NOT maintain a ww ratio close to 50%. In practice however, the larger the cow, the less likely she will have a WW ratio over 50%. But even a 1200 lb good looking cow will be culled if she cannot maintain close to a 50% (or higher) ww ratio.

So basically cow age is not a factor in my culling as long as she preg checks bred in the fall. Culling will be for other reasons. jmh beginner's opinion. Jim

 

[JHH]

I have small herd but am building. I have bought a few registered heifers to get a good variety of female genetics to go with my bull genetics and establish a small registered group.

From this point on though I do not see myself buying any more heifers or cows but growing from what I have. I believe Nova hit it on the head: when you raise them yourself you know what the characteristics of your different cow "families" are - at least you should. Ones you buy are much more unkowns.

Once you start keeping good data on your herd you know far more about them than about the ones you might buy. So I will be building from within from now on.

As far as age of herd and when to cull cows, I plan to cull every fall right after fall workup and preg check.

#1 reason for culling is anything that is open at preg check. I don't care how old they are if they can give me a good calf in the spring. But if they are open in November at preg check time, they go for an immediate trailer ride, no exceptions.

More than cull by age I am going to cull to reduce my average mature cow size gradually over time. I plan on keeping more heifers from my target 1200 lb cows than my largest cows and each fall after weaning sell maybe my largest 2 or 3 cows. So I may keep 4-6 heifers each year and sell my 2-3 largest cows.

Weaning weight ratio (calf adj 205 day ww/cow wt at weaning) is another factor in deciding who to cull each fall.

I will keep a cow, almost regardless of her size, if she can maintain a ww ratio above 50%. I will cull a cow, regardless of size, if she can NOT maintain a ww ratio close to 50%. In practice however, the larger the cow, the less likely she will have a WW ratio over 50%. But even a 1200 lb good looking cow will be culled if she cannot maintain close to a 50% (or higher) ww ratio.

So basically cow age is not a factor in my culling as long as she preg checks bred in the fall. Culling will be for other reasons. jmh beginner's opinion. Jim

Would the same apply if you had a drought that year? Just asking because I think a drought may affect your weaning weight

 

[Angus Cowman]

so because they have an older herd of cows and I have a younger more productive herd with the way you look at it they have a better herd because they didn't cull anything

I'm not sure how you came up with that idea by what I posted. I didn't say culling is a bad thing and I didn't say it was a good thing. I never said an older herd is better and I never said a younger herd was better. In fact I believe I made it fairly clear that I prefer to be at a happy medium on average age.

"If the average age is getting high it might be a sign that you are doing a good job raising good quality cows and they are simply hanging around longer."
This is where I got that about culling. if I took it out of context I am sorry
my Main issue for keeping a younger herd is a cow over 8 or 9 starts having feet and leg problems in these rocky hills

yes I have cows older than 8 or 9 but very few as stated in another post I have a LH cow that is atleast 15 and she is still sound and good but that is a little different deal than what I am doing with the herd that I am trying to make a living off of

 

[randiliana]

We do both. Keep our own heifers and buy some too. For the most part, I find that more of our own heifers tend to stay in the herd longer. With boughten ones, regardless of reputation, we tend to cull more of them at a younger age. Once they are in the herd for 3 years or so, then they tend to stay, but more of them will be culled in the first year or 2. If you are buying reputation cattle, you are more than likely paying more for them as well, so you have to figure out where that works for you and where it becomes too high a price. In fact, we have had better luck with trader cattle many times than we have had with reputation cattle.

As far as age of the herd, I don't want to see it get too high. But, I don't worry about it too much. I have no problems keeping old cows around as long as they are breeding back and still raising a good calf. I figure that every calf you get out of an old cow is mostly profit. She has paid for herself many years ago, and as long as she is raising a good enough calf to pay for her upkeep she can more or less stay around, and I know what her production is, rather than gamble on a young cow who may or may not work. But, then again, I keep some pretty detailed records, and we use them when making decisions on what to keep and what to cull. We take BW and WW so if a cow suddenly has a lower than normal BW than we would expect from her out of a bull, we will cull her. Same goes for WW. I know we might make the odd mistake, but better to sell before she is really worn out than after. Right now we probably have 15 cows in the herd over the age 10.

 

[SRBeef]

I have small herd but am building. I have bought a few registered heifers to get a good variety of female genetics to go with my bull genetics and establish a small registered group.

From this point on though I do not see myself buying any more heifers or cows but growing from what I have. I believe Nova hit it on the head: when you raise them yourself you know what the characteristics of your different cow "families" are - at least you should. Ones you buy are much more unkowns.

Once you start keeping good data on your herd you know far more about them than about the ones you might buy. So I will be building from within from now on.

As far as age of herd and when to cull cows, I plan to cull every fall right after fall workup and preg check.

#1 reason for culling is anything that is open at preg check. I don't care how old they are if they can give me a good calf in the spring. But if they are open in November at preg check time, they go for an immediate trailer ride, no exceptions.

More than cull by age I am going to cull to reduce my average mature cow size gradually over time. I plan on keeping more heifers from my target 1200 lb cows than my largest cows and each fall after weaning sell maybe my largest 2 or 3 cows. So I may keep 4-6 heifers each year and sell my 2-3 largest cows.

Weaning weight ratio (calf adj 205 day ww/cow wt at weaning) is another factor in deciding who to cull each fall.

I will keep a cow, almost regardless of her size, if she can maintain a ww ratio above 50%. I will cull a cow, regardless of size, if she can NOT maintain a ww ratio close to 50%. In practice however, the larger the cow, the less likely she will have a WW ratio over 50%. But even a 1200 lb good looking cow will be culled if she cannot maintain close to a 50% (or higher) ww ratio.

So basically cow age is not a factor in my culling as long as she preg checks bred in the fall. Culling will be for other reasons. jmh beginner's opinion. Jim

Would the same apply if you had a drought that year? Just asking because I think a drought may affect your weaning weight

I look at WW ratio pretty closely but will also compare each cow's ww ratio to the other cows every year and rank them. There are some cows that seem to do a lot better (still raise a heavy calf) in a dry year (like the 2009 summer) than others.

This system should hopefully, over time, leave me with a herd of fertile, moderate size, easier "doers" that raise heavy, earlier-maturing calves suited to my 14 mo harvest system.

We'll see. Steers go on grazing standing corn this weekend, if they can find it in all the snow! And if I can get the Ranger through to put up cross wires.

Jim

Culling for open along with ww ratio should also keep my herd from getting too old - the first time they come up open they should still have some value for hamburger.

 

[MF135]

I have small herd but am building. I have bought a few registered heifers to get a good variety of female genetics to go with my bull genetics and establish a small registered group.

From this point on though I do not see myself buying any more heifers or cows but growing from what I have. I believe Nova hit it on the head: when you raise them yourself you know what the characteristics of your different cow "families" are - at least you should. Ones you buy are much more unkowns.

Once you start keeping good data on your herd you know far more about them than about the ones you might buy. So I will be building from within from now on.

As far as age of herd and when to cull cows, I plan to cull every fall right after fall workup and preg check.

#1 reason for culling is anything that is open at preg check. I don't care how old they are if they can give me a good calf in the spring. But if they are open in November at preg check time, they go for an immediate trailer ride, no exceptions.

More than cull by age I am going to cull to reduce my average mature cow size gradually over time. I plan on keeping more heifers from my target 1200 lb cows than my largest cows and each fall after weaning sell maybe my largest 2 or 3 cows. So I may keep 4-6 heifers each year and sell my 2-3 largest cows.

Weaning weight ratio (calf adj 205 day ww/cow wt at weaning) is another factor in deciding who to cull each fall.

I will keep a cow, almost regardless of her size, if she can maintain a ww ratio above 50%. I will cull a cow, regardless of size, if she can NOT maintain a ww ratio close to 50%. In practice however, the larger the cow, the less likely she will have a WW ratio over 50%. But even a 1200 lb good looking cow will be culled if she cannot maintain close to a 50% (or higher) ww ratio.

So basically cow age is not a factor in my culling as long as she preg checks bred in the fall. Culling will be for other reasons. jmh beginner's opinion. Jim

Would the same apply if you had a drought that year? Just asking because I think a drought may affect your weaning weight

I would think a drought would also affect your cow weight, thus, leaving your ww % proportionate to the non-drought conditions.

 

[SRBeef]

I have small herd but am building. I have bought a few registered heifers to get a good variety of female genetics to go with my bull genetics and establish a small registered group.

From this point on though I do not see myself buying any more heifers or cows but growing from what I have. I believe Nova hit it on the head: when you raise them yourself you know what the characteristics of your different cow "families" are - at least you should. Ones you buy are much more unkowns.

Once you start keeping good data on your herd you know far more about them than about the ones you might buy. So I will be building from within from now on.

As far as age of herd and when to cull cows, I plan to cull every fall right after fall workup and preg check.

#1 reason for culling is anything that is open at preg check. I don't care how old they are if they can give me a good calf in the spring. But if they are open in November at preg check time, they go for an immediate trailer ride, no exceptions.

More than cull by age I am going to cull to reduce my average mature cow size gradually over time. I plan on keeping more heifers from my target 1200 lb cows than my largest cows and each fall after weaning sell maybe my largest 2 or 3 cows. So I may keep 4-6 heifers each year and sell my 2-3 largest cows.

Weaning weight ratio (calf adj 205 day ww/cow wt at weaning) is another factor in deciding who to cull each fall.

I will keep a cow, almost regardless of her size, if she can maintain a ww ratio above 50%. I will cull a cow, regardless of size, if she can NOT maintain a ww ratio close to 50%. In practice however, the larger the cow, the less likely she will have a WW ratio over 50%. But even a 1200 lb good looking cow will be culled if she cannot maintain close to a 50% (or higher) ww ratio.

So basically cow age is not a factor in my culling as long as she preg checks bred in the fall. Culling will be for other reasons. jmh beginner's opinion. Jim

Would the same apply if you had a drought that year? Just asking because I think a drought may affect your weaning weight

I would think a drought would also affect your cow weight, thus, leaving your ww % proportionate to the non-drought conditions.

I have not been doing this for too many years, however I have started with a rag-tag bunch of cows from different sources and very different genetics. This has in a way been an accidental bonus as a learning experience.

I had one cow 2 years ago I thought had Johnnes (sp?) because she got so thin in the fall. I had her tested and fortunately negative on the Johnnes. Her calf looked normal to good though. Other cows that fall looked in better condition themselves but their calves were not doing as well as the one I thought might have Johnnes. Next year with better grass this thin cow looked much better herself AND had another 55% range ww ratio calf.

So what I have inferred from this is that some cows put more of themselves into the calf than others which tend to maintain their own condition in a drought but the calf suffers...

In general yes the ww ratio may stay about the same in a drought condition as both cow and calf are sub parr. However I like the cows that put everything into the calf even in tough conditions. Because I know better now that when drought strikes I need to have a ready backup plan - more than I had a couple years ago when I let their condition drop too much in a dry fall. A backup of wrapped hay bales that I can use in the summer or fall if needed gives me a cushion so I can focus on the cows that put a lot into the calf. This shows up as a >50% WW ratio. I want to develop a herd that regularly weans 55% calves: 1200 lb cows 205 day wean 660 lb calves, up to about 1400 lb cows that typically wean a 770 lb 205 day calf. That is my goal. jmho. Jim

 

[regenwether]

I've never seen a 1400lb cow wean 770 lbs consistant and breed back in time. That would be a goal!

My only thought with % replacements being lower with purchased Heifer's is you wouldn't have any open ones. The tough part with purchased heifer's is anyone who sell them that has their own herd don't sell the "cream of crop" but save them for their own herd. The higher % cull rate from them girls may come there.

I've got another neighbor who feeds silage to his cow's . He brags how he has some 16 yr old no teeth cows. I wonder what kind of weaning wts. he gets. My experience is one long winter with ICE..you'll get rid of them fast! ;-)

 

[plumber_greg]

I usually keep 10 or 12 replacements each year. So, about 10%. One of my criteria for selectment is that they are born on the first heat cycle. What I have noticed is the fertility of the herd increasing. If a cow is open she sells. It seems that if a cow makes it to a 4 year old she'll last out. Last winter in 34 days of calving, if I remember right, I had all but 11 calves on the ground. One argument for keeping replacements. gs

 

[Suzie Q]

We started with the old cows that nobody wanted. Wormed, vaccinated and sent them out to eat and eat and eat and breed.

We have kept a few heifers each year. Last year we had a lot of heifers and I would prefer to keep all of them as our cows are aging each year. We will then start to sell off our cows and keep the heifers. Another couple of months and our heifers will be old enough to go to the bull. They go to the bull older here than you seem to over there, probably because of the brahman influence. We like them to have their first calf at 2 and 1/2.

Last year we had mostly heifers. This year we had mostly bulls, so they will be sold off as steers. Finally we have worked up enough to have a little income.

 

[KNERSIE]

I have small herd but am building. I have bought a few registered heifers to get a good variety of female genetics to go with my bull genetics and establish a small registered group.

From this point on though I do not see myself buying any more heifers or cows but growing from what I have. I believe Nova hit it on the head: when you raise them yourself you know what the characteristics of your different cow "families" are - at least you should. Ones you buy are much more unkowns.

Once you start keeping good data on your herd you know far more about them than about the ones you might buy. So I will be building from within from now on.

As far as age of herd and when to cull cows, I plan to cull every fall right after fall workup and preg check.

#1 reason for culling is anything that is open at preg check. I don't care how old they are if they can give me a good calf in the spring. But if they are open in November at preg check time, they go for an immediate trailer ride, no exceptions.

More than cull by age I am going to cull to reduce my average mature cow size gradually over time. I plan on keeping more heifers from my target 1200 lb cows than my largest cows and each fall after weaning sell maybe my largest 2 or 3 cows. So I may keep 4-6 heifers each year and sell my 2-3 largest cows.

Weaning weight ratio (calf adj 205 day ww/cow wt at weaning) is another factor in deciding who to cull each fall.

I will keep a cow, almost regardless of her size, if she can maintain a ww ratio above 50%. I will cull a cow, regardless of size, if she can NOT maintain a ww ratio close to 50%. In practice however, the larger the cow, the less likely she will have a WW ratio over 50%. But even a 1200 lb good looking cow will be culled if she cannot maintain close to a 50% (or higher) ww ratio.

So basically cow age is not a factor in my culling as long as she preg checks bred in the fall. Culling will be for other reasons. jmh beginner's opinion. Jim

Would the same apply if you had a drought that year? Just asking because I think a drought may affect your weaning weight

I look at WW ratio pretty closely but will also compare each cow's ww ratio to the other cows every year and rank them. There are some cows that seem to do a lot better (still raise a heavy calf) in a dry year (like the 2009 summer) than others.

This system should hopefully, over time, leave me with a herd of fertile, moderate size, easier "doers" that raise heavy, earlier-maturing calves suited to my 14 mo harvest system.

We'll see. Steers go on grazing standing corn this weekend, if they can find it in all the snow! And if I can get the Ranger through to put up cross wires.

Jim

Culling for open along with ww ratio should also keep my herd from getting too old - the first time they come up open they should still have some value for hamburger.

Or you can end up with a bunch of dairy types...

 

[Oldtimer]

Some of the outfits up here plan on keeping 15-20% of their herd yearly as replacements...Often depends on the year- with some dry years where cows have to travel farther for water and grass where I've seen as much as 10-12% or more being culled for being open or late bred (good year average probably around 5-8%)....Then when you take into effect that this shortgrass country is tough on cows teeth-and the winters tough on poor conditioned cows- add in cripples, bad bags, lump jaws, drys that lost their calf, poor performance cows, and bad dispositions- I think the norm would be 15-20% of the herd being replacements every year....
300 head herd keeping about 45-60 heifers as replacements...

I run in some of the better grazing for the area- have smaller pastures which counts for better breed up- BUT still figure at least 10% herd replacement a year...

 

[SRBeef]

...Or you can end up with a bunch of dairy types...

Some pictures from today of my fat, dairy type Herefords: ;-)

The cow in the center below is my oldest, I think she is about 9 but not sure on this one. Bags are shrinking after weaning.

I unrolled part of a bale as a special treat for this bred cow/heifer group then put the rest of the bale in the hay feeder. I finally got a side view picture of my "new" Huth U070 bull in an adjacent pasture where he is spending the winter with a couple steers. 15" of snow on the ground. They came through this past weeks very cold temps and windchills just fine. Jim