Helped the neighbor again today

[Dave]

So he had a couple hundred head he was feeding a good ways from home. Ran out of hay there so he brought them home today. We separated them into 2 herds. One is his registered cows. The other is a herd of Waygo cows. The registered cows is a novel idea. He has somewhere near 900 commercial cows. He uses these registered cows, both Black Angus and Charolais, to raise his own bulls. He AI's them to top bulls and has as good a crop of bulls as a person buys from seed stock growers. He needs about 10 bulls a year. This cow herd has about 50-60 cows so he is keeping roughly the top third of the bull calves. I don't know about the heifers. I do know there are very few white cows in the commercial herd so I assume they get shipped. The same thing could work on a smaller scale.

 

[Mossy Dell]

I like his plan, Dave. He probably breeds the best commercial females to Angus for replacements. Best being those that wean the greatest percentage of their body weight. All heifers go to Angus too, for calving ease and because they are out of the best cows. The rest of the commercial females go to Charolais, and are the only off-colored calves and all go to market.

How is he using the Wagyu cows?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

following

 

[Dave]

I like his plan, Dave. He probably breeds the best commercial females to Angus for replacements. Best being those that wean the greatest percentage of their body weight. All heifers go to Angus too, for calving ease and because they are out of the best cows. The rest of the commercial females go to Charolais, and are the only off-colored calves and all go to market.

How is he using the Wagyu cows?

I am not sure how he markets the Wagyu. I do know that at Washington Beef in Toppenish they kill nothing but Wagyu on Fridays. And they kill 1,200 a day. I got that information from a local bull wagon driver who hauls in there several times a week. So the neighbor might retain ownership or sell the calves to a feedlot. I don't know.
When I helped him sort replacement heifers off back in the fall there was a bunch of baldie heifers. He said they were out of Angus heifers that were AI'ed to "the best Hereford bull in the world". His yearling bull pen has 6 Angus and 4 Charolais in it. But the older bull pasture has more Charolais in the group. There is 900 cows total. I see at least one of every breed out there with them. And when they go to the hills in mid April I think they get bred by which ever bulls happens along.

 

[Dave]

I forgot the registered cows and the Waygu don't go to the hills. They spend the grazing season on irrigated pasture over by Baker City. And as far as which cows get bred by which bull. I helped haul calves when he weaned a bunch. They ran the cows out of the hills into a trap. I know we hauled 350 calves that day so there must have been 350 cows. There was also 3 gooseneck loads of the neighbors cattle. That included one horned Hereford bull of the neighbors who very well might have bred some of the cows.

 

[jehosofat]

Reckon how many bulls he runs total on the 900 head commercial herd?

 

[Dave]

The 900 head includes the 40-50 registered cows and about 150 or so Waygu. I don't go by the bull pasture very often. I am guessing when I say 35-40. I know that the next guy toward town sold over 325 calves on the video (400? cows) and there are 20 bulls in his bull pasture.

 

[bird dog]

I envy you Dave an I'm glad you share your ongoing story. Its interesting to us flat landers. I recently read an article I in a ranch magazine that was similar to what your friend is doing with keeping a small herd of registered top quality females to raise him 6 or 8 bulls a year. Makes a lot of sense. Wish I had an operation big enough to implement it.

 

[Dave]

I envy you Dave an I'm glad you share your ongoing story. Its interesting to us flat landers. I recently read an article I in a ranch magazine that was similar to what your friend is doing with keeping a small herd of registered top quality females to raise him 6 or 8 bulls a year. Makes a lot of sense. Wish I had an operation big enough to implement it.

I was serious when I said this could be done on a smaller scale. What would be wrong with buying one high quality cow, AI'ing her to a top bull and keeping her bull calves to breed the cows in a small commercial herd? The only down side would be if she had a heifer when you need a bull.

 

[jehosofat]

Buy two.

 

[Josher]

I've been thinking about this too. We tried AI on some of our better commercial cows for keeping a bull and some heifers this year so we're hoping that turns out. Bulls are getting too expensive so had to try. Just another thought: would it be cheaper to do a few embryo transfers into your commercial cows vs buying a good registered cow?

 

[Bright Raven]

It can definitely be done on a much much smaller scale. Right now I am 100 % AI but as I get older ( mid 70s), I suspect it is going to be tough. But right now, I can produce a Simmental bull as good or better than I can buy in the bottom two-thirds of the Bulls of The Bluegrass ( all Simmental).

If I ever need a herd bull or clean up bull, I will make my own from a cow I know and a stud bull I like.

Don't see why more commercial producers don't do this.

 

[bird dog]

One reason is of because of lack of knowledge on how to AI or embryo transplant. There is not an abundance of vets or others in my area that perform this service and only wanting one or two done does not help. Over the years I have bought a couple of older bred registered cows with the intention on one of them having a bull to raise. It has never worked out very well.

I guess it was because they either had heifers or the bull calves didn't stand out from my group of calves out of my commercial cows. I have kept some of these heifers. Maybe I didn't give them a chance or was expecting more? Either way is just seems more economical for me to buy a bull that is ready to go.

The subject is thought provoking and I will do some further research to see if it is possible.

 

[Bright Raven]

One reason is of because of lack of knowledge on how to AI or embryo transplant. There is not an abundance of vets or others in my area that perform this service and only wanting one or two done does not help. Over the years I have bought a couple of older bred registered cows with the intention on one of them having a bull to raise. It has never worked out very well.

I guess it was because they either had heifers or the bull calves didn't stand out from my group of calves out of my commercial cows. I have kept some of these heifers. Maybe I didn't give them a chance or was expecting more? Either way is just seems more economical for me to buy a bull that is ready to go.

The subject is thought provoking and I will do some further research to see if it is possible.

Understood

 

[76 Bar]

Don't see why more commercial producers don't do this.

BD's point are valid. That said, I believe the majority of commercial producers are convinced seed stock breeders are more qualified than they to raise/supply them with herd bulls. Goes without saying, if you raise your own bulls it's imperative the sire(s) and dam(s) have proven themselves in your environment and are relatively fault free.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

IMO- it takes a GREAT cow to make a good bull. I don't have a big bull market - but, I also don't raise them to breeding age. They are sold while still nursing mom. I am extremely picky what stays a bull - most are banded at birth. Real easy if they are heavy BW - immediately band them.

 

[Silver]

IMO- it takes a GREAT cow to make a good bull. I don't have a big bull market - but, I also don't raise them to breeding age. They are sold while still nursing mom. I am extremely picky what stays a bull - most are banded at birth. Real easy if they are heavy BW - immediately band them.

What weight do you use for a cutoff Jeanne?

 

[Mossy Dell]

I've been thinking about this too. We tried AI on some of our better commercial cows for keeping a bull and some heifers this year so we're hoping that turns out. Bulls are getting too expensive so had to try. Just another thought: would it be cheaper to do a few embryo transfers into your commercial cows vs buying a good registered cow?

I agree with your efforts! You surely own a few great cows. If you have more than a few commercial cows and take weaning weights and adjusted weights, you already know them. They have succeeded in your environment and weaned a high percentage of their own weight. They are probably better doers and producers than most registered cows you can buy.

Yes, some of that may be their hybrid vigor. Most of it is invisible maternal qualities and environmental fitness. They aren't just high milkers or they wouldn't breed back. You want cows that have brought in nice calves year after year. I'd AI them in a heartbeat too and raise my own bull. I am not sure about embryo transfer unless you have experienced folks in that nearby.

 

[Josher]

I've been thinking about this too. We tried AI on some of our better commercial cows for keeping a bull and some heifers this year so we're hoping that turns out. Bulls are getting too expensive so had to try. Just another thought: would it be cheaper to do a few embryo transfers into your commercial cows vs buying a good registered cow?

I agree with your efforts! You surely own a few great cows. If you have more than a few commercial cows and take weaning weights and adjusted weights, you already know them. They have succeeded in your environment and weaned a high percentage of their own weight. They are probably better doers and producers than most registered cows you can buy.

Yes, some of that may be their hybrid vigor. Most of it is invisible maternal qualities and environmental fitness. They aren't just high milkers or they wouldn't breed back. You want cows that have brought in nice calves year after year. I'd AI them in a heartbeat too and raise my own bull. I am not sure about embryo transfer unless you have experienced folks in that nearby.

Thanks for the advice! We've taken the top 1/4 of the commercial herd and AI'd those and time will tell how many of those caught. One tricky thing with choosing your best cows to keep a bull calf from is that those cows already have multiple daughters in the herd and keeping bloodlines separate will be an added challenge. That's where bringing in a totally new cow bloodline for purpose of raising bulls would be a benefit but o well, for now it'll just mean a little more sorting before sending out to pasture. And I'll have to ask around about ET. There are a number of vets in the area so we'll see if any would be willing.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Silver - I use 100#. It doesn't make any difference what their EPD's WILL be. If I sell one that heavy, and the buyer has ONE calving problem, my name is MUD.
I do also band if I KNOW their EPD's will be bad for CE - no matter what their weight is.
Most of my bull calves are in the 90-98# range (like you the cold adds BW). I realize there's not a lot of difference between 98 & 100#, but you have to have a figure in your mind. Also, if it is red and I don't EXPECT it to be a real kick-butt bull, he gets a band - or if I already have saved a red one. Some people come looking specifically for a red one, but they are less than one looking for black.
I actually had a buyer come & kept picking out ones that were steers. He asked "why did you cut him" and I told him he was hvy BW. He committed to buy 3 hvy BW bulls the next year. I was picky which ones I kept for him, but he has been using them for about 5 years now. He is the only farm I know that I gave my feedlot buyer his number. Feedlot loves his calves.