Help..GIVEN a calf, swollen knees, very skinny..what is it??

[Alice]

I also have noticed his ears inside are very dirty and do cows get ear mites? :shock:

Never thought about calves having ear mites. Drop a little mineral oil in the ear if that's got ya' worried. Can't hurt...

And worming right now? Nah...worm when the baby is stronger...and older. Probably doesn't make a bit of difference, buy why tempt fate?

Alice

 

[larryshoat]

Do have a question though... Vaccines and worming???? Now? Later? He would be aprox 6 weeks old now. :?:

I believe there is never a bad time to vaccinate calves. Todays vaccines do an excellent job of stimulating the immune system. I firmly believe in vaccinating sick calves. If we try to wait for the calf to get better all too often we never find a time.Bovi-sheild 5 gold is one that I use a lot .The Vista vaccines are good too.
You can talk to your vet about this , more than likely he or she will tell you that I'm wrong , and it is just my opinion , but an opinion formed by treating sick calves.

Larry

Vaccines stress (not stimulate) the immune system. Illness stresses the immune system. Vaccinating a sick animal means stressing an already stressed immune system. You want to push the calf over the edge?

While there are instances where it has been found to be successful to vaccinate a chronic animal, you will never find anyone with any training (vets) suggesting a sick, non-chronic, animal be vaccinated.

Your decisions are only as good as the information you base them on.

I thought you might say that. I have what I call the "train analogy",it simply states that there are four kinds of people
1. people that have missed the train.
2. people that are riding on the train.
3. people that are driving the train.
4. people that are laying down the track.

Milkmaid I can tell that you are very intelligent and will make a wonderful vet,but I think at some point you will have to decide where you are going to be on that train.
I guess treating thouands of sick of sick calves does'nt qualify me as a person with "any training" so I would suggest going to calfdoctor.com, click on newsletters and read about modified live virus vaccines as treatment.Dr. Russel Schnepper is one of the formost authorities on raising calves in the world.Your gonna be great MM .

Larry

 

[milkmaid]

Couple thoughts on the article, Larry...

1) he says, "When you see a calf with pneumonia, the problem developed two weeks ago."

IMO, in some cases, yes... however, I've seen a few too many develop pneumonia at 1-2 days old to believe that one started two weeks ago.

2) he says, "My current calf program uses Immunoboost on Day One and Day Eight in lieu of the MLV vaccine. Interferon is produced with in two hours following an injection of Immunoboost and the interferon lasts for seven days at a much higher level than is obtained with the MLV vaccine."

So he finds that using a immune system stimulant at the beginning works better than using a vaccine that initally supresses the immune system. Big surprise.

3) he says, "Do I vaccinate sick calves? I certainly do. I have tried waiting until the calves looked good to vaccinate, and I never seem to find that time period."

That's just a time management problem. Or else a management problem that he can't get them to ever look good.

4) he says, "It is important to realize the vaccine causes an immune response in the calf and it will run a fever after injection. A calf with a fever may not want to eat well. So the day after vaccinating with an MLV, the calf will look worse. The second day post vaccination the calf looks about like it did the day of vaccination. By the third day the calf is usually up and running."

IMO one has to take into consideration the condition of the calf. It is perfectly possible that the immune system may mount a valiant response to being severely stressed, but you may well take the calf down so far you kill him before his immune system achieves an adequate defense.

quotes from http://www.calfdoctor.com/NSL/NSL05/Jan05NSL.html

Some of what he says in there is good, but I'm not sure I agree with everything he says. If it doesn't line up with my previously acquired information... then it's either wrong or I need to do some new research. The paper was written almost 3 years ago and doesn't quote any studies or other verifiable information other than someone's opinion. Dunno. Thanks for giving me something to think about though.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I have to agree with giving a MLV to a MODERATELY ill calf, but not a full blown sick calf.
We use Nasalgen on our show cattle whenever they get a little "off". And, I have had our vet agree with this "treatment".
Deworming is also stressfull, but having worms is more stressful/harmful, so you just want to wait til the calf is strong enough for a little stress, but I wouldn't wait very long.
As far as giving vaccine for "protection", I believe most vaccines recommend after 3 months of age - IF - the calf received colostrom in a timely manner.

 

[larryshoat]

Couple thoughts on the article, Larry...

1) he says, "When you see a calf with pneumonia, the problem developed two weeks ago."

IMO, in some cases, yes... however, I've seen a few too many develop pneumonia at 1-2 days old to believe that one started two weeks ago.

Good thought,I agree


3) he says, "Do I vaccinate sick calves? I certainly do. I have tried waiting until the calves looked good to vaccinate, and I never seem to find that time period."

That's just a time management problem. Or else a management problem that he can't get them to ever look good.

I think here he is talking about those problem groups that never seem to get healed up.

4) he says, "It is important to realize the vaccine causes an immune response in the calf and it will run a fever after injection. A calf with a fever may not want to eat well. So the day after vaccinating with an MLV, the calf will look worse. The second day post vaccination the calf looks about like it did the day of vaccination. By the third day the calf is usually up and running."

IMO one has to take into consideration the condition of the calf. It is perfectly possible that the immune system may mount a valiant response to being severely stressed, but you may well take the calf down so far you kill him before his immune system achieves an adequate defense.

I know he says that , but with the bovi-shield 5 gold that has not been my observation.The vaccines that we have today are considerably better and safer than they were 3 years ago when this article was written.


Some of what he says in there is good, but I'm not sure I agree with everything he says. If it doesn't line up with my previously acquired information... then it's either wrong or I need to do some new research. The paper was written almost 3 years ago and doesn't quote any studies or other verifiable information other than someone's opinion. Dunno. Thanks for giving me something to think about though.

I certainly don't agree with everything he says either.All you can do is sort out what seems to make sense and give it a try.I don't think you will find much research on this. Vaccines are constantly evolving and we all need to be receptive to the idea that the vaccines of the future will perform in ways we that we could never have dreamed of. I appreciate your careful thoughtful analysis of this .

Larry

 

[LGodlove]

I want to ask Larry and Milkmaid a question.

I agree that the pneumonia started 2-weeks ago. I have a now 3-week old calf I got at the sale barn, and am treating him now for it.

My question is this: when I buy a calf at the sale barn and transport him to my pen, what is the best possible protocol to follow as far as medicines and food go.

I currently administer 5mL of LA200, then give the calf a 2-qt bottle of electrolytes=Re-sorb right away and I think with my next ones I'm going to drench them with mineral oil to clean their system out.

Now, you both would probably not even buy a calf at the sale barn--I know, I know that everyone says not to--but that's how I get mine. What steps would you take from the beginning to give the little fellow the best possible start? Thank you for your answers, you both sound very knowledgeable.

 

[larryshoat]

I want to ask Larry and Milkmaid a question.

I agree that the pneumonia started 2-weeks ago. I have a now 3-week old calf I got at the sale barn, and am treating him now for it.

My question is this: when I buy a calf at the sale barn and transport him to my pen, what is the best possible protocol to follow as far as medicines and food go.

I currently administer 5mL of LA200, then give the calf a 2-qt bottle of electrolytes=Re-sorb right away and I think with my next ones I'm going to drench them with mineral oil to clean their system out.

Now, you both would probably not even buy a calf at the sale barn--I know, I know that everyone says not to--but that's how I get mine. What steps would you take from the beginning to give the little fellow the best possible start? Thank you for your answers, you both sound very knowledgeable.

I buy many sale barn calves, we started 127 last tuesday, most were from a sale barn.I don't think I would try the mineral oil idea. Most bottle calf problems follow a case of scours or navel infection. First the navel infection, give him 10 ml penicilin day one in place of the LA200. When the navel is bigger than your thumb and solid it needs to be treated. I hear many problems on this board that result from untreated navel infections.When you have scour problems usually respiratory problems are not far behind.Use a good quality all milk replacer.
Starting off with Re-sorb is OK. I'm a firm believer in feeding water.I would let him have 2 quarts of clear warm water between milk feedings. If he scours you can add the re-sorb.
Feed milk 12 hours apart.Ithink TSV2 can be bought in single doses I would give 1 ml of that up each nostril on day one.Start early with grain , put it in his mouth at water feeding time and keep fresh feed and water in front of him at all times.
The amount of meds you will need to keep will depend on how close you are to a vet.

Hopefully Milkmaid and Alice will get in on this and cover some of what I've missed.

Larry

 

[hillsdown]

Why don't you guys go straight to the seller and buy from them instead of at the auction. It will save them the BS of hauling calves to the sale barn and you can work out a relationship where you know the calf receives colostrum and is treated properly as soon as it hits the ground.

When we dairied my I never had to haul a calf to the auction. It worked out great for both parties. JMHP.

It may cost more per calf but you will save money on the meds that you are pumping into the calves, not to mention the ramifications of over usage of antibiotics in the beef industry.

 

[larryshoat]

Why don't you guys go straight to the seller and buy from them instead of at the auction. It will save them the BS of hauling calves to the sale barn and you can work out a relationship where you know the calf receives colostrum and is treated properly as soon as it hits the ground.

When we dairied my I never had to haul a calf to the auction. It worked out great for both parties. JMHP.

It may cost more per calf but you will save money on the meds that you are pumping into the calves, not to mention the ramifications of over usage of antibiotics in the beef industry.

When I sell a group of calves I have to have a pot load of even calves ready all at once. This means they to be put in all at once. The only way to get those large groups at one time is through calf dealers. They may pull calves from several different sales in several states , but they can put together the numbers. When your finished you must have 48000 lbs of even,castrated,dehorned,vaccinated,ready to go calves or they won't mess with you.

Larry

 

[hillsdown]

Sorry Larry that wasn't directed at you.I know that you raise thousands of calves a year.It was more for the people that want to raise 50-100 a year.A herd that milks 300 or even less could readily have bull calves every week for them.

 

[larryshoat]

Sorry Larry that wasn't directed at you.I know that you raise thousands of calves a year.It was more for the people that want to raise 50-100 a year.A herd that milks 300 or even less could readily have bull calves every week for them.

No problem hd. we usually raise 800-1000 calves per year. I agree it seems like there should be a better way,but I have not found it yet.Your right that would be an excellent way to get a smaller number of calves.In addition some dairies might be interested in having their heifers custom raised.

Larry

 

[LGodlove]

Thank you for the information, Larry.

Believe me, I cannot even fathom having an operation that raises hundreds of these little buggers. This is a very tough job (and dirty too--needs Mike Rowe from TV , especially when you have calves with the stinkin' scours.

 

[angie1]

I got my babies from sale barn before I quit raising babies. I agree with Larry ~ I would not try the mineral oil.

The key to grain is to keep it fresh. What they don't eat should be dumped so you don't want to give them too much ~ the less you have to dump the better.

New calves home should always be separated from the ones that you already have ~ the ones that are established and healthy.

We do not vaccinate or band until they have their legs under them.