Heifer Bull?

[Dale L]

We have always been a commercial operation. My grandpa and dad always used purebred bulls, sometimes they were registered and sometimes they were not. They never cared a lick about epd's. I realize you can't pick animals based only on epd's but I think they are an excellent tool to give you a good idea of what to expect. So my question is for those of you that are more knowledgeable in this than me-
Dad is hoping to get either an angus or a black Simmental next. We will have 6 heifers to breed. As far as CE and BW what is the cutoff where you say that it is not a good bull to use on heifers. We are not a big enough operation to justify the use of two bulls.

 

[WalnutCrest]

I was just having a similar conversation with a friend of mine earlier this morning.

I made a comment about having a "heifer bull". He interrupted me and said, "I'd never want a bull I couldn't breed to heifers." I know him well enough to know that he means that a bull should have small enough calves that you can breed him to a heifer ... and ... his calves should grow well enough that they are well received when its time to sell.

Sorry, I can't answer your specific question ... but I thought the observation was on point enough to justify sharing.

Good luck to you!

 

[FlyingLSimmentals]

For us with the Black Simmental, I look for CE too be 10.0 and greater and the BW too be 2.0 and lower. We here are still mostly a commercial cow calf operation therefore all our heifers and females aren't all large Simmental females and we haven't had any calving troubles unless the calf was breached or misrepresented. Our first black Simmental was an CE 8 and BW 3.0 had just a little trouble with a few heifers with him. Again no trouble with the bulls after him. Also look for a positive MCE score think that would help as well. Remember young bulls EPD's aren't very accurate and could fall or rise. The Star Power bull is a good example of one that came out as a CE bull but numbers really fell until he wasn't, even though we didn't have any trouble with his genetics. Check out the dam and sire's EPD's and just don't go with the individual. If both parents have good CE and BW number the individual bull would probably too. Anyway that's my advice maybe it'll help you.

 

[Jessica06]

I would play it safe and go with a bull with a negative BW epd, and a CE score in the top 40% or better. Structure is important too...bold shoulders are a no-go.

 

[HDRider]

Maybe this is a stupid question. How does a bull's age have any bearing on him being a heifer bull?

Regardless of age, BW and CE EPDs would be the only indication you'd have whether he is a good heifer bull. Right?

That said, am I missing the obvious weight difference between a young bull and a full grown bull being too heavy for not yet full grown cows?

 

[dun]

Maybe this is a stupid question. How does a bull's age have any bearing on him being a heifer bull?

Regardless of age, BW and CE EPDs would be the only indication you'd have whether he is a good heifer bull. Right?

That said, am I missing the obvious weight difference between a young bull and a full grown bull being too heavy for not yet full grown cows?

It depends on the bull. I had a 2300 lb bull that when he bred a cow or a heifer they wouldn;t even take a step forward and never collapsed under his weight. Had a yearling that knocked every cow on the place to the ground. It's kind of like a gentleman carrys his weight on his elbows.

 

[cowgirl8]

We always use LBW angus on our heifers. And, the calves always grow out good, for a heifer calf. Every heifer is different on how much milk she produces that first year. We did however take a calf off a heifer due to her udder size and i grafted that calf onto a mature cow who was noted as a heavy milk producer and consistently raised calves above % weaning weights(her calf died at birth). And you can tell this calf is getting more to eat than his half sibs. Its not what she usually raises, but i think its because we didnt graft the calf until he was around a month and it took forever for her to claim him as hers, he'd have to search her out and missed many meals his first 2 months of life. I've been watching him because i've always had the same question.
We buy new heifer bulls every year and put the older ones on the cows. There are many bulls in each herd, that i cant pick out whose is whose, so they must do fine on older cows too. And, our cows do not have small calves out of these bulls like the heifers do. The heifers this year averaged around 50..which out of the guys we used last year were bigger than the ones before that, which were around 30....Cows had 60 to 70 pounds. Our calf pulling is almost 0, except for an occasional heifer...
Here he is about a month ago and was born during the ice storm texas had, so whatever date that was he's that old...minus a month when this picture was taken.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Dale L-
As an answer to your post here, I will repeat the same refrain and chant that I always seem to do; it makes no difference whether you are breeding 6 cows, or 600 cows or 6000 cows - keep your breeding protocol ( or schedule, or program or agenda - or whatever you wish to call it) in mind constantly - that should be; BALANCE your EPD's and Phenotype with both the bull and cow(s) with CE, BW, WW, YW and MILK that does not exceed the MILK EPD between the cow and bull of 25. AND - Never Practice SINGLE TRAIT SELECTION protocols!

RULES TO LIVE BY!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Son of Butch]

Dad is hoping to get either an angus or a black Simmental. As far as CE and BW what is the cutoff where you say that it is not a good bull to use on heifers.

Black Angus is a calving ease breed, so using a breed average angus bull with +5 ce +2.0 bw is fine for heifers.
People tell me I'm behind the times and that simmentals have 'fixed' their 'calving problem reputation.'
BUT I would not use a Simmental bull on Angus heifers unless he was minus on birth weight and +10 ce or higher.
my :2cents:

 

[cowgirl8]

Dad is hoping to get either an angus or a black Simmental. As far as CE and BW what is the cutoff where you say that it is not a good bull to use on heifers.

Black Angus is a calving ease breed, so using a breed average angus bull with +5 ce +2.0 bw is fine for heifers.
People tell me I'm behind the times and that simmentals have 'fixed' their 'calving problem reputation.'
BUT I would not use a Simmental bull on Angus heifers unless he was minus on birth weight and +10 ce or higher.
my :2cents:

:shock: You'd have to put a lot of trust in those numbers to put a sim on angus heifers.... :shock:

 

[Son of Butch]

By the question asked, I don't think Dale is planning on single trait selection.
I believe he is just wondering which bulls to eliminate from consideration before going on to the next trait selection.

 

[Son of Butch]

I would not use a Simmental bull on Angus heifers unless he was minus on birth weight and +10 ce or higher.
my :2cents:

:shock: You'd have to put a lot of trust in those numbers to put a sim on angus heifers.... :shock:

Yeah, I probably should have phrased it "I would not consider"
but he did ask for max numbers...
I've never done it, but Uno Mas at Select Sires is one I would consider, especially the sexed semen to make some nice
simmi-angus females.
16 ce [top 3%] -1.6 bw [top 2%]

 

[Dale L]

Thank you all for your input. You guys and gals are offering good advice and I appreciate it!

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

For Simmental, I like at least an 8 point split between CE and birth weight. We bred an angus heifer, pioneer sired, to Beef Maker, a calving ease sire carried by ABS. She calved at 285 days, a 49 pound heifer calf. I have NO FEAR of using simmental on heifers, but we do it every spring and fall for the last 7 years.

 

[cowgirl8]

For Simmental, I like at least an 8 point split between CE and birth weight. We bred an angus heifer, pioneer sired, to Beef Maker, a calving ease sire carried by ABS. She calved at 285 days, a 49 pound heifer calf. I have NO FEAR of using simmental on heifers, but we do it every spring and fall for the last 7 years.

How many heifers do you calve out each year?

 

[FlyingLSimmentals]

We've had four of those little bity calves this year as well, didn't get them weighed but I'm pretty sure they went in that 45 - 55 lb. range. Just little bity squirts and it sure makes it hard to find them when they are hiding. They were all four heifers but out of my Invasion son who has a CE EPD of 8.5 and a BW EPD of 2.4. Most of his calves run from 60 - 85 pounds. The heifers in the 60's to low 70's, and the bulls in the 70's to low 80's.