healed castration pictures please

[cowgirl8]

For anyone who will and can, please post a picture of what the area looks like on a steer where they were castrated. I want pictures of calves who were cut when they were newborns, banded at newborns, cut older, banded older.
Earlier this year i was informed that at weaning, buyers can tell when a calf goes through a sale ring if that calf was banded or cut and if you band your calves they get docked. It was an idiotic argument and I've been waiting until my calves nuts fell off to compare them to others who said you can tell the difference. So here is your chance to enlighten me on this matter...
I'll have a good picture later this morning.

 

[Jessica06]

I don't think buyers can be that picky anymore, if they ever were. About 90% of the bull calves that go through around here are uncut. I don't have any pictures, but the difference is pretty obvious. Cut steers have something still there, while banded calves don't. We band all of ours.

Sometimes the best thing to do is politely acknowledge, and just let it go. We have neighbors that are just figuring out that black calves bring more.

 

[cowgirl8]

I'm truly curious.. If anyone has more time than they know to do with like me..lol.....I'd really like to see a picture of a cut calf, different ages would be great too. Like a calf cut in the first month and is now over 5 months of age.
Here are calves that were banded at different ages. The first is our youngest calf. He was banded at around a month old..
It was hard as heck to get this picture..He was not cooperating...

Here is one we banded at 4 months. Its been about a month since we banded and 99% of the testicles have fallen off. i saw a couple today when i was trying to get a picture..

Both have fat bubbles around the site. Some have more than others. The younger one banded has more hanging down.

Ricebelt, i know many who dont cut either. It almost make sense to not because you dont get docked that much and the calf grows bigger. One year we didnt cut because it just wouldnt quit raining....Those calves got so big, it was amazing...but, we did have to deal with them all being bulls...

 

[Jessica06]

Around here, calves that have been cut bring enough of a premium to make it worth someone's while to do it. Most people are leaving anywhere from $25-100 on the table, per calf, which really adds up in a hurry. It is a *huge* pet-peeve of mine, seeing calves run through that have been ear-notched and ear-tagged, but are still intact. I even saw a set of 1000# bull calves one time that had been on full feed, that hadn't been cut. That guy lost probably $3-400 a head because of it, when cattle were bringing a fraction of what they are now.

The way I see it, by going ahead and fully working them as babies, we are not only helping the next guy in line, but the calf, since the older they are cut the harder it is on them and the longer it takes for them to recuperate. With the prices the buyers are having to pay for our calves, I figure the least we can do as responsible producers is set them up for success the best that we can. Think of it as paying it forward. Especially since the only effort it costs me is a few extra seconds to put a band on, PLUS I get paid for it. I know a lot of people probably don't put that much thought into the next step in the chain, but maybe they should. Especially the ones that raise premium type cattle. But then again, those are the people that typically don't cut corners. Professional cattlemen castrate, which should speak volumes as they don't do much, if anything, that doesn't turn a significant profit.

It may take a few years, but if you try to do as many things the right way that you can, buyers take notice and reward you for it. :2cents:

 

[boondocks]

We were advised by vet to band at birth, so that's what we do, day 1 if poss.

 

[Tim/South]

I do not have any pictures. We have never taken pictures of cut calves.
I have seen steers come through the sale ring and the ring guy call out, "Knife cut". When you look at the area you can see two distinct lines, healed scars, where the two incisions were made.
To have those tell-tell scars I have to believe the calf was cut fairly early in life, and that an incision was made on each side of the scrotum.
My son and I each cut differently.
He removes the bottom of the scrotum. Cuts straight across.
I make an incision on the side of the scrotum, push the jewel over to that side and make it tight, then slice down with a scalpel.
My way would be more likely to leave the two "heal lines" I see when they yell out "knife cut".

 

[cowgirl8]

Looking forward to pictures then. I'm hoping someone will step up and show me what a weanlings nutsack looks like when it was cut when it was a baby..We use to cut but its been a long time and i dont remember seeing the sack still there when we sold them.

 

[Tim/South]

Looking forward to pictures then. I'm hoping someone will step up and show me what a weanlings nutsack looks like when it was cut when it was a baby..We use to cut but its been a long time and i dont remember seeing the sack still there when we sold them.

You will not see the sack once they grow off. You may see the lines where the incision was made and healed. The lines will be on the belly side, not hanging down. just two little off colored lines that say he was knife cut.

 

[chippie]

It depends on how the calf was cut. My husband cut off the bottom of the scrotum, pushed it back and pulled the testes out & cut them. He would do this with very young calves.

Honestly, I think that whoever told you that is pulling your chain. I mean really, when the cattle are milling about, can the buyer get a good look? The last calf I sold was a 8 month old bull and the barn sold him as a steer. It was obvious that he was a bull. Go figure.

 

[redsimangus]

around here it hardly makes any difference whether they are knife cut or banded. a lot of us here band them so we don't have to worry about the blood and the flys. with the cattle prices so high some of the bull calves bring just as much if not more than the steers

 

[raykour]

I have 10 knife cut calves that were cut at about 6 weeks of age. If you give me an email address, I will get some photos and send them onto you. The calves are 400 lbs. now. I am not savvy enough to post photos on this forum.

 

[cowgirl8]

Here is the discussion where i was told many times you can tell and the buyers can tell when the calf runs through the ring and you'll get docked for banding..
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=90651&start=30
Now i'm told i'm suppose to take everyones word on what they say. I'm more of a prove it kind of person before i will believe. Been waiting all season to get someone to post a picture...Here's your chance....anyone anyone..

 

[Ozhorse]

I have an aunt in her 90's who still has cattle. I had this discussion with her years ago. I wanted to know what difference it makes to the buyer. I think she just said the old boys like to have a feel.

I accept that some buyers like to have steers castrated with a knife.

What I would like to know from someone who has done a lot of buying and selling is why????

I worked a short time on a feedlot 10+ years ago and I have a memory that the cut steers would have more of a fatty sac that the banded ones would not. I am quite prepared to be wrong on this. I remember seeing steers so fat their udders were fat too.

The only thing I can think of at the moment is that when a steer is fattened for slaughter you can sort of tell how much fat is on him or not by the amount of fat around or in the scrotum, which they still have when cut, but not banded. Is this so or just faulty memory on my part?

So why would a buyer want to pay more for a steer that has a scrotum than one that does not?

 

[cowgirl8]

According to that thread i shared the link to is, too many stag steers. We've castrated both ways and its just as easy to leave a nut when you cut. And once you cut and cant get one to move down, thats it, you have to leave it. If you band and cant get both nuts, you can take the band off. What i was trying to point out is if you castrate with a band on a larger calf, you have to get both or the one left can fall out when the band falls off. I know this first hand, had one my first year of banding do this. There was one i couldnt get both so left the band and the one nut up. Later on, that nut fell out when the band and dried sack came off. Never did it again. I have maybe one every other year i cant get both so i leave a bull...
If people castrate by cutting just so that buyers can see the fat content of the steer, that can work for you in both ways. What i tried to tell everyone is with banding, even at a later age, they get the fat bubble and you can see it in both pictures i posted. And, the nuts just fell off, so give them another month and there will be a bigger fat bubble in that spot just like cut calves. Some said the sack still hangs when you cut, well, you wouldnt want that either since you get docked for running a bull though, a lot of time bulls will have their jewels pulled up and what you'll see is a empty sack. Buyers only get a quick look, i've never been to a sale where someone lifted the calf's leg and made it apparent for everyone to see the difference on each calf running through. We've had bull calves listed as steers...sold as steers when they were later calves or one i left a bull because i couldnt get both..They move too fast at sales for it to be positive in either way...
If i remember right, when we castrated, the sack will shrivel up and there will be nothing but a bulge, just like a banded calf. I'm willing to admit i'm wrong, i just want to see pictures.. And if i have to, i'll go find someone who cuts and get pictures myself..
I dont put it past anyone trying to gain more on their bull calves by somehow trying to leave the testicles up in there. But, you wont do it by banding alone, they will fall out through the sight where the band was. There almost has to be sort of stitch, staple used to hold them in.. If those people who do it on purpose will make it look like they are cut so they dont get docked for having banded calves..which, you dont get docked in the first place...

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

We have no pictures, since I do not go out and purposely take pictures of scrotal sacks. However, I can tell you we see a big difference between banded and knife cut. Our county does a carcass contest each year, for the last three years. ALWAYS, we discuss the castration method used on each calf entered, and all of the kids and adults get a good look at the sack. The extension agent has a good, long talk with the kids about the differences in how cattlemen castrate and why. They never take a side (like cutting is better than banding or vise versa), they just leave it up to each kid and family to decide what method is best for their farm.
Here is what we have seen in EACH year we have done this; when the calves get first evaluated at about 7 to 10 months (most are between 600 to 800 pounds), there is an obvious difference in the structure of the sack. The banded calves have no sack, and a type of pucker where the band was before it fell off. The knife cut calves have a small sack, with scars. But an obvious sack.
When they are at slaughter weight, the difference is not so obvious, depending on how much fat is there. And each calf deposits fat differently, so some have a bigger cod (the fat deposit in the sack) than others regardless of how they were castrated.
Something you said that struck me as odd; when you castrate with a knife... you can miss one. ????? I can tell you we can count to two pretty easily over here, so how you can miss one when you knife cut is beyond me. In most cases, we cut at weaning and the vet is there to help us since we do our herd health at the same time. So maybe because they are larger, but I just do not see how someone can miss a testicle when you are knife cutting. We also cut them while they are standing in the chute, so gravity works to our advantage. We cut the bottom 1/4 off the sack, then pull them through to cut them off (like Chippie).
That way it drains better. Of course, it might be a numbers problem, since we do not castrate a bunch each time (our herd is small since we are limited on acreage).

 

[J&D Cattle]

Fire Sweep, I agree with you, never missed a testicle when knife cutting. We cut ours at weaning the same way. We've had calves stand awkward and suck one up a bit but with a little bit of patience we've never missed one.

 

[cowgirl8]

We have no pictures, since I do not go out and purposely take pictures of scrotal sacks. However, I can tell you we see a big difference between banded and knife cut. Our county does a carcass contest each year, for the last three years. ALWAYS, we discuss the castration method used on each calf entered, and all of the kids and adults get a good look at the sack. The extension agent has a good, long talk with the kids about the differences in how cattlemen castrate and why. They never take a side (like cutting is better than banding or vise versa), they just leave it up to each kid and family to decide what method is best for their farm.
Here is what we have seen in EACH year we have done this; when the calves get first evaluated at about 7 to 10 months (most are between 600 to 800 pounds), there is an obvious difference in the structure of the sack. The banded calves have no sack, and a type of pucker where the band was before it fell off. The knife cut calves have a small sack, with scars. But an obvious sack.
When they are at slaughter weight, the difference is not so obvious, depending on how much fat is there. And each calf deposits fat differently, so some have a bigger cod (the fat deposit in the sack) than others regardless of how they were castrated.
Something you said that struck me as odd; when you castrate with a knife... you can miss one. ????? I can tell you we can count to two pretty easily over here, so how you can miss one when you knife cut is beyond me. In most cases, we cut at weaning and the vet is there to help us since we do our herd health at the same time. So maybe because they are larger, but I just do not see how someone can miss a testicle when you are knife cutting. We also cut them while they are standing in the chute, so gravity works to our advantage. We cut the bottom 1/4 off the sack, then pull them through to cut them off (like Chippie).
That way it drains better. Of course, it might be a numbers problem, since we do not castrate a bunch each time (our herd is small since we are limited on acreage).

Its easy to count to 2 either way.....Every once in a while one of the testicles does not descend. Cryptorchidism happens...Once you cut open the sack and find, oops, cant get that one down, you're stuck with leaving it. When you band, if you cant get them both down, you're not stuck with one already cut out and the sack half gone. http://vetbook.org/wiki/cow/index.php/Cryptorchidism

 

[inyati13]

We have no pictures, since I do not go out and purposely take pictures of scrotal sacks. However, I can tell you we see a big difference between banded and knife cut. Our county does a carcass contest each year, for the last three years. ALWAYS, we discuss the castration method used on each calf entered, and all of the kids and adults get a good look at the sack. The extension agent has a good, long talk with the kids about the differences in how cattlemen castrate and why. They never take a side (like cutting is better than banding or vise versa), they just leave it up to each kid and family to decide what method is best for their farm.
Here is what we have seen in EACH year we have done this; when the calves get first evaluated at about 7 to 10 months (most are between 600 to 800 pounds), there is an obvious difference in the structure of the sack. The banded calves have no sack, and a type of pucker where the band was before it fell off. The knife cut calves have a small sack, with scars. But an obvious sack.
When they are at slaughter weight, the difference is not so obvious, depending on how much fat is there. And each calf deposits fat differently, so some have a bigger cod (the fat deposit in the sack) than others regardless of how they were castrated.
Something you said that struck me as odd; when you castrate with a knife... you can miss one. ????? I can tell you we can count to two pretty easily over here, so how you can miss one when you knife cut is beyond me. In most cases, we cut at weaning and the vet is there to help us since we do our herd health at the same time. So maybe because they are larger, but I just do not see how someone can miss a testicle when you are knife cutting. We also cut them while they are standing in the chute, so gravity works to our advantage. We cut the bottom 1/4 off the sack, then pull them through to cut them off (like Chippie).
That way it drains better. Of course, it might be a numbers problem, since we do not castrate a bunch each time (our herd is small since we are limited on acreage).

Its easy to count to 2 either way.....Every once in a while one of the testicles does not descend. Cryptorchidism happens...Once you cut open the sack and find, oops, cant get that one down, you're stuck with leaving it. When you band, if you cant get them both down, you're not stuck with one already cut out and the sack half gone. http://vetbook.org/wiki/cow/index.php/Cryptorchidism

cowgirl8, failure of a testicle to descend into the scrotum is going to leave a testicle whether you band or cut. In cryptorchidism, the testicle never comes down, as a result of it being retained at the higher temperatures in the body cavity, they are sterile. Happens in humans. Some cases of homosexuality in humans has been traced back to cryptorchidism. I know the reference you provided says it is "common". But common is an arbitrary word. I have never seen it in my calves. I know you have a much bigger herd. How often do you see what you think is cryptorchidism?

 

[cowgirl8]

Yes, thus the reason it is still there....
About 1 in 100 for us.....maybe more, 2 in 100...Now, if you look at all the male cattle that come though a sale, wouldnt it mean that a large number are going to have a testicle still up in there. And i know for a fact that if you leave one up when banding and its not Cryptorchidism, it will come out the banding site once the band falls off. I had it happen. So now when i band, if i cant get one down i take the band off and leave him a bull. I dont always see if both are down when i get a calf in the chute, sometimes until i can get a hand on them, both are pulled up in their belly. Its only after i've worked and worked to get it down past the band do i take the band off and try to get it down..I also watched many many cut castrations and occasionally husband or father in law could not get one out. When that happened, it got left in there. No turning back after that, it gets left.
I'm really confused when people say you know when you have 2 when you cut....You know when you have 2 when you band..same thing.....1....2.....

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

We have no pictures, since I do not go out and purposely take pictures of scrotal sacks. However, I can tell you we see a big difference between banded and knife cut. Our county does a carcass contest each year, for the last three years. ALWAYS, we discuss the castration method used on each calf entered, and all of the kids and adults get a good look at the sack. The extension agent has a good, long talk with the kids about the differences in how cattlemen castrate and why. They never take a side (like cutting is better than banding or vise versa), they just leave it up to each kid and family to decide what method is best for their farm.
Here is what we have seen in EACH year we have done this; when the calves get first evaluated at about 7 to 10 months (most are between 600 to 800 pounds), there is an obvious difference in the structure of the sack. The banded calves have no sack, and a type of pucker where the band was before it fell off. The knife cut calves have a small sack, with scars. But an obvious sack.
When they are at slaughter weight, the difference is not so obvious, depending on how much fat is there. And each calf deposits fat differently, so some have a bigger cod (the fat deposit in the sack) than others regardless of how they were castrated.
Something you said that struck me as odd; when you castrate with a knife... you can miss one. ????? I can tell you we can count to two pretty easily over here, so how you can miss one when you knife cut is beyond me. In most cases, we cut at weaning and the vet is there to help us since we do our herd health at the same time. So maybe because they are larger, but I just do not see how someone can miss a testicle when you are knife cutting. We also cut them while they are standing in the chute, so gravity works to our advantage. We cut the bottom 1/4 off the sack, then pull them through to cut them off (like Chippie).
That way it drains better. Of course, it might be a numbers problem, since we do not castrate a bunch each time (our herd is small since we are limited on acreage).

Its easy to count to 2 either way.....Every once in a while one of the testicles does not descend. Cryptorchidism happens...Once you cut open the sack and find, oops, cant get that one down, you're stuck with leaving it. When you band, if you cant get them both down, you're not stuck with one already cut out and the sack half gone. http://vetbook.org/wiki/cow/index.php/Cryptorchidism

I know all too well what that is. We refuse to cut when we notice that condition, and let the vet take care of it. Now with that said, we have only seen a crypt orchid in horses, not any of our cattle. And the horses had to be taken to the vet to be surgically castrated. But, you can bet before we whip out the knife in our cattle, we are finding both testicles and making sure they are accessible in all calves before we cut. I can see if one is doing a very young calf, and flipping it over, missing the diagnosis of a crypt orchid, but not when we wait till weaning (most exceed 600 pounds) and standing in the chute.