Hay versus Cattle Profits

[stocky]

Nova, I agree with you on both counts. I dont know how hay producers make any money at 25 dollars and if you have more than just a few head of cattle, you will break yourself feeding lick tubs. I buy high quality grass and clover mixed hay and I only feed salt and mineral free choice. On occasion when I have fed supplement to clean up some stockpiled fescue, I have used liquid feed in lick tanks. That has worked well for me. I have used the liquid supplement when I have been given a bunch of 3 or 4 year old hay. I have neighbors who buy combined fescue hay and they have to use liquid supplement.
It happened again as it always does. After a high priced hay year, alot of people pencil out how much money they can make growing hay. We had record hay production in our area and with all the cattle that were sold, very few buyers. So people find out they cant sell their hay for the high prices that made them decide to be a hay producer.

 

[Stocker Steve]

In this marginal row corp area - - until 2007 folks raised hay because it was about break even. This was better than losing money crop farming.

With the price of grain up and the price of cattle down, I am seeing a lot of hay fields being plowed up. The guy I buy hay from plowed down half of his hay fields this fall.

How much do you expect beef cow prices to decline the next couple years?

 

[stocky]

Stocker, I don't know. It all depends on how low the United States beef consumption goes, what export markets open back up, grain prices, and how much the beef imports are opened. With the fuel and other price increases, people have less money to purchase beef. The grain prices are making feedlots pay less for feeders. How much the mama cows come down will be determined by how far the feeders drop. If they stay at 1 dollar per pound, I don't think the cow market will come down much more. If the feeders go to 50 cents per pound like they did in the early 90's, cows will come down another 300-500 per cow. I hope none of this happens, but with some pairs that were bringing 12-1500 per pair now bringing 900-1000, it has already come down alot.

 

[novatech]

I have always found that buying protein in the form of hay is far cheaper than lick tubs.

That might be correct with a lick tub but not so with liquid feed which costs me about 18 cents per day, per cow, combined with some cheap hay ($30 per bale) to take care of the required roughage. I know exactly what nutrients I get with the liquid feed but with hay, a lot of us are at the mercy of the grower as to the nutrient value and he can make any claim he wants. And, if you did get the hay tested and it was high protein, you will probably pay an arm and a leg for it.

As to making money on hay, I just hope to bale enough to cover my needs and sell enough to recover my costs. Got an overage? Store it.

Break your hay down as to cost per lb. of protein. Example; 1000 lb hay at 12% = 120 lbs. protein @ $65.00 = $.54 per lb. 7% = $.93
Do the same with your supplement.
The amount of supplement cattle consume may be an indicator of the quality forage they are getting.
You are not at the mercy of your supplier. You do have freedom of choice. The price of testing hay should out weigh the benefits. A supplement is called a supplement because that is exactly what it is.

 

[john250]

Lots of good comments on this thread.
Fertilizer is outrageous. My dealer says he has one main choice for most every product. The business is WalMarted. Next years' full hay crop will be as expensive/ton as this years 1/2 crop was/ton, because of fertilizer.
Remember, response to N (and P and K) is non-linear. The most yield response is on the first few units. I think you have to keep buying if you want to produce high yields. But I'm buying fewer units/acre. Trying to optimize the input. Just like the Indians and Chinese. Danged global economy.
Something will give, and I expect it is the number of cattle sold. There is no incentive at these price levels, whether you sell fats or feeders or even direct.
Don't look back, somethin' might be gaining on you. --Satchel Paige, I think.

 

[novatech]

Well I guess next year you will be right. It may reverse. But then again many of the ingredients that on into the all natural and some of the urea based supplements are going to need fertilizer also.
What I am trying to get across is what ever you do put a pencil to it to see what you are actually getting for your dollar.
With all the prices going up on production and the prices going down on cattle I would think this would be increasingly important.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Got the price on urea this morning at the table 525 a ton this year.

 

[novatech]

Something I do not understand is why would one want to get hay above 12% protein. That is all a cow can use. If you have low quality forage in the field the cattle still eat maybe there is some benefit. I may be wrong on this but I thought you only need 7% protein to maintain cattle without calves on them.
So what is the most cost efficient hay to raise in regard to % protein content if that is all you are feeding.

 

[simangus23]

Not only am I in the hay business, but I am also in the cattle business, so you can't hurt my feelings - lol.
I grew up down near Beeville Texas and I dont believe those Longhorn Cows need anything very good to make a go of it. Hell they can make it on Prickly pear If you are willing to pay the price for Hay we are willing to sell it to ya. We grow bermuda grass hay and sell it all every year to cattleman just like you and yall just keep buying it. Thank you for your hard earned money as it sure makes my xmas better.

Ya know what we do?
We sell all our good hay to the "cattlemen" and we keep the worst hay for our own cows-- you may ask why?
We bale the rankest bermuda and weeds and garbage hay no one wants then we juice it up with a liquid protien supplement for 3 dollars a ton and end up with a 10% hay for (what cost you ask?) read it and weep cattleman-----> $21 per ton!

Thanks agaian for your hard earned cash -- we do appreciate it Tex

Simangus

 

[kerley]

Ok, I'll play your game. How do you do it for 21$

 

[TexasBred]

Sim, evidently daddy don't pay you nearly what you think you're worth or the cost of the hay would be much higher. :lol: :lol:

 

[simangus23]

Texasbred--- I never said what we charged the Buckeroos like you for Top Quality Hay--- I just said what we spend on our cow hay---
Pull your head out of your rope bag Pard

 

[TexasBred]

Sim..rofl....you said you put it up for $21...not what you sold it for. Guess you put "your" feedin' hay up for no charge lik'n your time ain't worth nothing. Seems you're getting just what you pay fer.

 

[Running Arrow Bill]

Not only am I in the hay business, but I am also in the cattle business, so you can't hurt my feelings - lol.
I grew up down near Beeville Texas and I dont believe those Longhorn Cows need anything very good to make a go of it. be nice they can make it on Prickly pear If you are willing to pay the price for Hay we are willing to sell it to ya. We grow bermuda grass hay and sell it all every year to cattleman just like you and yall just keep buying it. Thank you for your hard earned money as it sure makes my xmas better.

Ya know what we do?
We sell all our good hay to the "cattlemen" and we keep the worst hay for our own cows-- you may ask why?
We bale the rankest bermuda and weeds and garbage hay no one wants then we juice it up with a liquid protien supplement for 3 dollars a ton and end up with a 10% hay for (what cost you ask?) read it and weep cattleman-----> $21 per ton!

Thanks agaian for your hard earned cash -- we do appreciate it Tex

Simangus

Whatever...

True...Longhorns can "survive" on less quality forage than those other breeds. On the other hand, if you are trying to raise quality registered seedstock, then it costs a little more to do it.

If a producer has little or no winter grazing, etc., then he/she needs higher quality hay. On the other hand, there are a lot of fish in the sea (hay producers) and some have better quality hay at more reasonable prices than do others. It's a caveat emptor situation.

No, we at RAF don't feed our Longhorns cacti, sagebrush, rocks, and mesquite thorns. The proof is in the stock...we have lots of photos on our website.

Git R Done!

 

[simangus23]

Tex I realize you are not the sharpest tool in the shed, so let me try to break it down for you in elementary terms.
When you use the protien supplements in sub-standard hay or even cornstalks for that matter ---we can elevate the CP in a roll of hay that would otherwise be useless without it. We can bale this hay cheap and "juice it up" to a 10% CP-- thus saving much more money than feeding a highly fertilized Grass hay. And yes we can do it for $21 per ton and sell the highly fertilized premium hay to Horse people and cow outfits who dont make their own or are in short supply. My whole post was really not to put down the avg cattleman who is in need of hay, but instead to use this post as Information on how others save money on hay---

I was hoping that your light would come on --- evidently I was wrong--- I will see you at the hay barn yet again this year hat in hand looking for Hay--- sad indeed!

Simangus23

 

[backhoeboogie]

Sim there are several of us on this forum who run cattle and sell hay.

There was so much hay this year that we let the pastures go. There was hay to bale at approximately 12% by that time that didn't need juicing. It costs less than $21 to jsut bale it. If everyone in the county has surplus quality hay, there is no money to be made. Right now in this area you aren't going to sell your juiced hay. Folks are taking $20 a bale just to cut their losses. Others are stocking up just because it is cheap, and good hay.

In the '05 drought, you could have made money here with that hay of yours. A lot of it. '06 too.

 

[dyates]

Take off $3 for the supplement and that takes you to $18/ton. Our rolls weigh about 1200#. That's $10.80 a roll. I can't roll weeds or anything else for that, even if you give it to me. The twine and fuel cost almost that much, not to talk about depreciation or breakdowns. :roll:

 

[TexasBred]

.
When you use the protien supplements in sub-standard hay or even cornstalks for that matter ---we can elevate the CP in a roll of hay that would otherwise be useless without it. We can bale this hay cheap and "juice it up" to a 10% CP-- thus saving much more money than feeding a highly fertilized Grass hay. And yes we can do it for $21 per ton and sell the highly fertilized premium hay to Horse people and cow outfits who dont make their own or are in short supply. My whole post was really not to put down the avg cattleman who is in need of hay, but instead to use this post as Information on how others save money on hay---

I was hoping that your light would come on --- evidently I was wrong--- I will see you at the hay barn yet again this year hat in hand looking for Hay--- sad indeed!

Simangus23

Ok what do you consider your cheap sorry hay?? 7% Crude Protein?? Now is you add even a 32% liquid supplement to a 1000 lb. roll of hay you gotta put 140 lbs. of the stuff on the hay to get the protein up to 10%. At $190 a ton for the supplement you've got $13.30 in supplement alone. And the heavier that roll the more liquid supplement required. That leaves you $7.70 to cut, rake, roll and stack that hay prior to treatment with the liquid supplement. If you can do that you musta borrowed the tractor, rake, baler, string, net wrap and diesel and the fertilizer (if you used it) was given to you as well. You're fooling nobody but yourself.