Hay gouging

[holly heifer]

:heart: YEA, ALICE!!!! :clap:

 

[Legacy38464]

;-) And what about the price of a 2008 3/4 ton pick up? retty:

holly, It is just too bad the wife isn't going to buy one of those. I'd prefer her to buy a 1 ton, but I would be okay with a 3/4 diesel. But no. She's got her eye on one of those Buick SUV's and its going to have every option gadget she can load on it, and cost more than a 1 ton. She's already calculated how many more months it is going to take to have enough nickels to go get it. Atleast she's paying cash for it. Probably a $20K loss when she drives off the lot (how much hay would $20K buy?). But it will make her smile and that's okay with me. I don't have to drive it. That is just the way it is and I am okay with it.

Just remember the old saying "If moma aint happy then nobody's happy" :lol:

 

[Legacy38464]

I've read through this fun thread and have come to one conclusion, Hay is out ragous, a few get a little hot under the collar, but at the end of the day as long as you can look yourself in the mirror all will be fine.....

I know here, Lawrenceburg TN, area we do have a hay shortage. This year we only got one cutting and it was half the normal, with the april freeze and then the lack of rain we culled until it hurt, and coupled with that the drought hit about 60% of the pasture to the point of no return..So as you can guess the culling got worse and we've went from about 120 to 30 and selling the extra hay. Now were plantng about 200 acres of wheat.....Pastures dead anyway.....

 

[Lammie]

Ahhh, the sounds of the hobbiests crying because the hay folks won't play farmer nicely with them! :lol: :lol:

It's gonna get a LOT worse. With the price of corn ( and now wheat/barley ) hay is under a LOT of pressure.

And I love the hobbiests whining about the horse people!! You pay more than 3$ for a small square so you can say you have cattle and YOU are part of the problem! :lol:

Too funny.

Yeah, you are right. I need to just fold up and go away...

 

[sanchez]

Didn't this whole thing start with someone being concerned about hay dealers creating a false shortage and then jacking up the price like 400% or something like that?

This goes on in the oil and gas industry all the time...and guess who gets it stuck to 'em? Yup, John and Jane Q. Public. I guess the little guys are learning how to do business like the big corporations.

Creating false shortages to jack up the price by 400% is unethical, I don't care who does it or why. If some stock broker did that, he'd be looking at a prison sentence, I think.

Alice

Ya - in most states price gouging is illegal, and if done during times of crisis, often times a felony. But alas, so many people do it now adays and get away with it, including Gas Stations and Apartment Associations (more so price fixing).

We do have a free market though, and eventually it will self correct, whether that means a lot of hay dealers or consumers going out of business or not.

 

[backhoeboogie]

So as you can guess the culling got worse and we've went from about 120 to 30 and selling the extra hay. Now were plantng about 200 acres of wheat.....Pastures dead anyway.....

That is where we were for the last two years. Planted winter crops in '05, got almost 2 inches of rain in September, then several hundred degree days and no more rain until late January. Everything was a loss plus wind erosion on the plowed fields.

Now we are on the opposite side of the coin. No cows and more hay than we will ever use. People are selling hay on eBay.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Yeah, you are right. I need to just fold up and go away...

No you don't. You aint getting off that easy. You been hanging out with cattle folk since before you could walk. It is in your blood and that's why you are here now. :lol:

Don't forget that I once vowed to never own cattle. I had enough as a kid myself.

 

[ALX.]

Ahhh, the sounds of the hobbiests crying because the hay folks won't play farmer nicely with them! :lol: :lol:

It's gonna get a LOT worse. With the price of corn ( and now wheat/barley ) hay is under a LOT of pressure.

And I love the hobbiests whining about the horse people!! You pay more than 3$ for a small square so you can say you have cattle and YOU are part of the problem! :lol:

Too funny.

Yeah, you are right. I need to just fold up and go away...

No Lammie, not my point at all.

This drought /shortage/gouging talk has been going on for years in here - but I never see in here anyone takes the advice offered.

You gotta think about hay like your life/business depends on it.

How many of the folks with problems bought hay a year or 2 years ahead when they had cheap access?? ( And I wonder if they had been that smart if they would be giving it away now ).

You have to know your cost of production and decide if the cows support you or you support them.

Lots of self-righteous charity BS is spouted in here - but the real world, where real cattlemen and farmers make their living is often a very unforgiving place.Cattlemen do not suffer fools well.

All the BS about artificial shortage - guess what - there is a real shortage and folks IN THE BUSINESS know it.

 

[Lammie]

Ahhh, the sounds of the hobbiests crying because the hay folks won't play farmer nicely with them! :lol: :lol:

It's gonna get a LOT worse. With the price of corn ( and now wheat/barley ) hay is under a LOT of pressure.

And I love the hobbiests whining about the horse people!! You pay more than 3$ for a small square so you can say you have cattle and YOU are part of the problem! :lol:

Too funny.

Yeah, you are right. I need to just fold up and go away...

No Lammie, not my point at all.

This drought /shortage/gouging talk has been going on for years in here - but I never see in here anyone takes the advice offered.

You gotta think about hay like your life/business depends on it.

How many of the folks with problems bought hay a year or 2 years ahead when they had cheap access?? ( And I wonder if they had been that smart if they would be giving it away now ).

You have to know your cost of production and decide if the cows support you or you support them.

Lots of self-righteous charity BS is spouted in here - but the real world, where real cattlemen and farmers make their living is often a very unforgiving place.Cattlemen do not suffer fools well.

All the BS about artificial shortage - guess what - there is a real shortage and folks IN THE BUSINESS know it.

I guess I am saying that the dreaded hobbyists are the ones paying a premium for hay and you can't tell me that anyone selling wont turn down all that good hobby money.

I tend to only raise enough beef to keep in the freezer. They aren't pets, though they have had names, and I know where they are going to end up. I ain't a fool, though. Like BHB said, I have been around this all my life and I like it a lot. I would like to have a bigger herd but I won't until I have the facilities I need and the land and equipment to produce my own hay.

Other than calves, I have miniature donkeys, which is my hobby, but I do raise them to sell and there must be bigger idiots than me out there, or my donks are getting cuter, because I have been able to command progressively higher prices each year I operate. I can sell a donkey baby for as much or sometimes much more than I can get for a calf at the sale barn. Not bad for little donkeys that eat nothing but grass 9 months a year. This year, anyway. :roll:

As long as rain falls, I can continue to buy good hay for a fair price. During dry years, that's a different story. Even then I can usually find what I need. Just takes more time.

Until I get more land I will be buying hay from others. But I have to watch my pennies like everyone else and I won't be overcharged.

 

[dieselbeef]

just a thought

why would you think just because they are ''hobby farmers'' that they would have an endless supply of money and/or hay. thats just about one of the dumbest things ive ever heard. as if anyone would pay too much just cuz they could....gimme a break. its mostly availability thats the issue although paying 10$ more a roll doesntake me feel very good either. you buy fuel at high costs cuz you can...if you cant then yer screwed. same as hay.. i wont walk to work and i WILL NOT starve my animals to bring down the price of hay...

 

[MissouriExile]

We have had this discussion before. If you don't like the prices, grow your own. Once you price fertilizer, reality is going to set in hard. Increased diesel prices don't compare to the increase in fertilizer price.

Yea, I know this is not a new topic for me, can you really justify a 400% increase in one year? BTW, most local suppliers in my area do not fertilize. As I did last time you said "grow your own", I thought it wasn't much of a statement (makes zero sense) and showed me you are missing the point. But maybe you can tell me as a hay producer, how you would justify things to your hay buyers holding on to your hay during the haying season so you can bump the price 400% over the year before?

This is not a post about the increasing costs of producing hay (I accept that fact and am willing to price the reasonable inflated price). It's about refusing to sell to regular clients, and jacking the price by 400% in one year..... how would you justify that to your cleints.

I only bring it up again because of the 400 ton I found at 60 per ton, BTW it's a grass alfalfa mix and the cows love it. One guy wants $265 per ton, another (huge hay outlet) wants $60 per ton.... please explain the justification in that.

Alan

It's not right, not fair, not decent. It's raw ugly capitalism. Free Enterprise. It's what we all fight to preserve.

But it is not one sided. When a dealer for whom you have been a regular customer tries to rip you off like that (it's his property, his God given right to do so) you simply do not deal with the scum bag again. When others ask you to recommend a dealer you mention someone else.
If all dealers are gouging then you grow your own. If you don't like to be at the mercy of folks like that you grow your own.

The great part is that you can do that. You can deal with the problem. That too is what we all fight for.

Jon

 

[Caustic Burno]

Alan this goes back to having at least a half winter to a full season in reserve. Have to plan for a rainy day or the lack of, it is part of the business. Option 1 buy the hay grin and bear it 2 cull cows to reduce hay requirements 3 start producing your own.

I think if you looked at the actual cost of a hay field and the equipment it takes to produce it after you finish with your pencil it's still probabaly a bargin.

 

[Alan]

Alan this goes back to having at least a half winter to a full season in reserve. Have to plan for a rainy day or the lack of, it is part of the business. Option 1 buy the hay grin and bear it 2 cull cows to reduce hay requirements 3 start producing your own.

That is pretty much what I did, while shopping for hay last summer, I discovered some of my suppliers in the past weren't selling hay to anyone in hopes to get big bucks when hay was short. I soon found about 15 ton for about $65 per ton ($2 per bale). I fed it for a couple of months and started shopping again, no local hay for sale, so I bought from a hay exporter good grass/alfalfa mix at $60 per ton. They started with 400 ton, I got 10 ton in the barn before they sold out in 3 days. Of course I told my neighbors and freinds about it so they didn't get stung.... I should be able to get through until grass startes to grow in March.

I think if you looked at the actual cost of a hay field and the equipment it takes to produce it after you finish with your pencil it's still probabaly a bargin.
That's just why Backhoe's comments make no sense.

Some of the folks are right on the money, it's their product to sell at the price they choose.... But I have talked with a few folk around here and they are about as happy as I am with past suppliers refusing to sell hay just to drive up the price.... I still hope they get stuck with it and they have a year with little hay income and they get shook back to ethical reality.

JMO,
Alan

 

[Jim62]

If the local hay suppliers do not fertilize, as you say, they're selling you junk and apparently, you buy it. Never heard of a hay supplier that didn't fertilize his fields.

 

[Alan]

All the BS about artificial shortage - guess what - there is a real shortage and folks IN THE BUSINESS know it.

While I believe different areas of the country (countries) do and are suffering from a legit hay shortage in some years. I can't see how you would know what the hay inventory is like in my local area. We did have a legit shortage last year (too much rain and a short growing season), and the hay was gone fast. What little was left had people banging on the door of the producers and offering twice the normal price. Now we have the current year, good season lots of hay, good quaility hay. I know some of my suppliers have barn fulls, because I can see it from the road. they are waiting until late Jan or Feb to sell in hopes of raping their past cleintel.... I may or may not buy from them again... like I said I haven't burned any bridges (yet), but they have to get shook back in reality.

You have no idea what the hay inventory is like in my neck of the woods.

Alan

 

[Alan]

If the local hay suppliers do not fertilize, as you say, they're selling you junk and apparently, you buy it. Never heard of a hay supplier that didn't fertilize his fields.

I thought I had left this post for bigger and better things.... "just when I think I'm out they pull me back in again" (godfather 3 I think)

Most of the hay growers in my area do not fertilize, some do. It's just a feild grass mixture, canary grass, fetch, clover, and other grasses (not sure what's in it). It may be junk, but the cows like it and they come through in the spring in very good shape and throw a healthly calf with lots of vigor. I winter on feild grass and minerals, and worm twice a year. I have no complaints about the quaility of the local hay.

My problem is with a guy wanting to jack the price 400% in one year for feild grass. As stated before one of my past suppliers just had an ad in the paper for local feild grass, $8 per 60lb bale ($266 per ton). I can and have driven 2 hours to eastern Oregon, where they do grow some of the best hay around, it's fertilized, weed control and they irragate and get 3 to 4 cuttings a year off it.... It's mostly horse hay, but it's currently going for $165 to $175 per ton. I haul 5 ton at a time, It cost me about $100 in fuel and a days time..... and a sore back. (yes I would be considered a hobby guy). I fed a few tons of that last year, during the legit shortage, the only problem I had is trying to get the cattle back on the local hay... It's like eating Filets and Prime Rib and have to go back to a Big Mac.

Alan

 

[backhoeboogie]

I have talked with a few folk around here and they are about as happy as I am with past suppliers refusing to sell hay just to drive up the price....
Alan

Alan maybe one of those folks will see an opportunity and start growing good quality hay themselves. You'd make a good customer for them.

Good luck with it all.

 

[john250]

I think if you looked at the actual cost of a hay field and the equipment it takes to produce it after you finish with your pencil it's still probabaly a bargin.

Control your hay destiny, and you only have yourself to blame. I like that scenario. If my destiny doesn't pay out in April 08, I am SOL.
Unless you purchase pricey out-of-state hay, there is very little quality to be found in my area. If hay continues to be this valuable, I think several might step up production. Including me.

2007 was a freak. Normally, or average, my ground can count on 45" of rain. Next year is better. Always has been.

Cornstalks. My cows are eating them like candy and maintaining BCS. The rumen is one of god's gifts.

 

[Lammie]

Caustic Burno?

Did I miss something.

 

[ALX.]

You have no idea what the hay inventory is like in my neck of the woods.

Alan

If I was concerned at all about it, I could find out in a hurry.
And I'll also wager that from 1,500 miles away I could find you some reasonable priced hay.

But, that may just give you something else to whine about.

And to the other hobbyist, no , hay producers won't hesitate to take your money, you may even see a grin on their faces when they pocket it.

Hay has become a commodity, and it will stay that way for some time to come, if not for good.

I will not apologize for being abrupt on this. Folks in all sectors of beef need to take a long hard look at their feed situation.

And if you are not in it for profit, however modest that profit may be, who cares?