Grass-fed vs. Grain-fed beef

[novatech]

I agree about a more clear cut definition. I guess one could graze them in a corn field before harvest.
As far as profit, I believe that niche markets can be profitable and there would be more profit if you never had to lot them. It is really like any other enterprise, marketing and management.
As Far as;

So you see without a clear scientific definition this whole grass-fed thing is nothing but smoke and mirrors and was created by those environmental wakos promoting land preservation.
And if you bother researching those who are promoting grass-fed cattle you will find that there is government grant money involved. Therefore profit is not the motivating force behind it.
Hows that? Your turn.

I do not understand how land preservation and cattle eating up all the grass have anything to do with each other. Government grants; please show me where you got that. There may be something to it but I have never heard of it. :???:

 

[Sir Loin]

Angus/Brangus

Re your post on Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:15 pm

Found this a few minutes ago:

October 16, 2007

Ha ha ha! Thank you for posting that one.
See I told you it was all about the environment!

So the claim to fame for grass-fed beef is, and I quote, "will clearly benefit human health and the environment.".

Now lets see what we can find out about the people who were/are promoting this " health and environmental " issue, and where the money is coming from that is behind it.
Who is: said Dr. Margaret Mellon, director of the Food and Environment Program at UCS?

I'm beginning to smell blood!
Thanks again
SL

 

[Sir Loin]

Now to answer my own question: Who is: said Dr. Margaret Mellon, director of the Food and Environment Program at UCS?
Read this: http://www.activistcash.com/biography.cfm/bid/1572

Biography
Margaret Mellon is the go-to gal when news outlets want a negative quote about genetically enhanced crops -- or just about any other food-related technology. She's a frequent presence on CNN, NPR and ABC, and major newspapers across the country constantly publish her words. And why not? In her position as Director of the Union of Concerned Scientists' Food and Environment program, she has frequently published negative "science" on food biotechnology, and has served on the USDA's Advisory Committee on Agricultural Biotechnology. Mellon looks and smells like an expert, despite questions about her biased methodology.

Mellon came to UCS from the National Wildlife Foundation, along with her deputy, Jane Rissler. She is an Advisory Board Member of the Center for Food Safety, another radical anti-technology group.

Q. Who is the Union of Concerned Scientists?
Well you can read that for yourself.
And there is where the grant money is coming from to bankroll this attack on the agricultural and beef industry being promoted by Dr. Margaret Mellon.

People! This grass-fed BS is all about the environment and has nothing to do with your health.
SL

 

[Roadapple]

Found this a few minutes ago:

October 16, 2007

New USDA Grass-fed Rules will Benefit Consumers and the Environment
The U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) today announced new rules for labeling meat from grass-fed livestock that will benefit the environment and public health, according to the Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS). The rules stipulate that meat labeled "grass fed" must come from animals fed solely on grasses, hay and other non-grain vegetation.

"This rule will help consumers choose meat from 'smart pasture operations' that are better for the environment," said Dr. Margaret Mellon, director of the Food and Environment Program at UCS. "Unlike massive confined animal feeding operations, these farms use sophisticated land management practices to maximize productivity without despoiling our air, water and soil."

Raising livestock on pastures avoids the crowding and illnesses that plague livestock in confined animal feeding operations (CAFOs). Modern grass-fed methods are also more cost-effective and environmentally friendly because they take advantage of low-cost grasses that typically require little added water, and few or no synthetic fertilizers and pesticides. A growing number of farmers across the country are now turning to this modern approach to livestock production.

Additionally, grass-fed beef is better for public health, Mellon, a biologist, added. A 2006 UCS report found that meat from grass-fed cattle contains higher levels of beneficial fats that may prevent heart disease and strengthen the immune system than meat from cattle raised in CAFOs. The study also found that grass-fed meat is often leaner than CAFO meat.

The USDA issued the new rules after years of deliberation and thousands of public comments urging the agency to establish a label with clear standards and definitions. The rule becomes effective on November 15, paving the way for producers to apply to use the grass-fed label. Producers that use the label must submit documentation to the USDA verifying their adherence to the grass-only dietary requirement. Consumers may be able to find USDA grass-fed labels on meat packaging in local grocery stores by the end of next year.

"We applaud the USDA for giving consumers a clear choice," said Mellon. "This new label will allow the market for grass-fed products to continue to grow, and will clearly benefit human health and the environment."

I'd be interested in knowing "how" much higher Vits, and beneficial fats are in grass fed vs grain fed. And I see where "The union of Concerned Scientists" say that grass fed have more beneficial fats that "may" prevent heart disease. How much difference between the two? Is there any studies on this and what's the results?

 

[Sir Loin]

Roadapple
Re:

Is there any studies on this and what's the results?

I'm sure there are. All they have to do is tell some so-called scientist what they want, pay him, and they get what they want.
Do you know Cheerios claims that if you eat Cheerios it will reduce your cholesterol which is the main cause of heart attacks and their main ingredients are OATS and CORN starch.
Go figure??
If you feed oats and corn to cattle it is bad for you, but if you eat it direct it is good for you.
Now explain that one to me, people!!

Why is it that the very same people who claim grains are bad for you if it passes through a cow eat all kinds of grains and grain products from bread, cereals to Granola bars and rice cakes.
IMO if you don't think you should eat beef fed on grains then you should not be eating any grains or grain products because that too would be healthier.
SL

 

[Sir Loin]

Hippie Rancher et al
Oh this is just to good to let slide. ROFLMAO

I did a --------- well just read this. It's just to darn funny to put into words. And you want me to invest in something this dead head wantabe came up with.
What an expert to be quoting or taking advise from.
http://www.eatwild.com/jo.html

Jo Robinson, an investigative journalist and New York Times best-selling writer,
&
. Jo has spent the last nine years researching the many benefits of raising animals on pasture.
&
While researching the book, Jo learned that meat from pasture-raised animals is very similar to meat from wild game

So you want me to invest in this grass-fed crap based on a journalists 9 year research to produce beef that is very similar to meat from wild game????
Well at least she got the wild game part right!!!
Still ROFLMAO

Sorry folks but this is just too funny to go on!! :tiphat:
Your turn!
SL

 

[Hippie Rancher]

Hippie Rancher et al
Oh this is just to good to let slide. ROFLMAO

I did a --------- well just read this. It's just to darn funny to put into words. And you want me to invest in something this dead head wantabe came up with.
What an expert to be quoting or taking advise from.
http://www.eatwild.com/jo.html

Jo Robinson, an investigative journalist and New York Times best-selling writer,
&
. Jo has spent the last nine years researching the many benefits of raising animals on pasture.
&
While researching the book, Jo learned that meat from pasture-raised animals is very similar to meat from wild game

So you want me to invest in this grass-fed crap based on a journalists 9 year research to produce beef that is very similar to meat from wild game????
Well at least she got the wild game part right!!!
Still ROFLMAO

Sorry folks but this is just too funny to go on!! :tiphat:
Your turn!
SL

I don't want you to invest in anything. I was simply trying to explain some things you asked about. It would be nice if you could explain why a journalist couldn't do research and come to conclusions based on that research rather than just laughing.

If you think human biology is the same as bovine biology or that eating meat from a grain fed animal is in any way the same as eating the grain itself (your oat eating rant) I can tell right away you have no understanding of the way biology or science works. If you think cattle do fine on a grain diet have at it. If you want to deny that lots of problems exist in confined feeding operations - be my guest, deny away.

Cattle are grazers, they evolved to eat grass. During certain parts of the year they may get a calorie boost in the form of "grain" when the grass seeds out. In general that will be late summer or early fall (sort of like any other animal fattening up for winter) They are also highly adaptable and CAN eat concentrates, by-products, various kinds of waste etc. Just because they can doesn't mean they should. When you start heavily graining cattle you have to be cautious because it really alters metabolism and can cause all kinds of digestive problems, liver abcess etc. Are you denying this?

Oh and in your amazing AHA! Gotcha! comparison of MY definition of grass fed (that you demanded I give rather than posting links) and the one posted FROM the USDA you seemed to think that was a huge disparity. It is not. I was merely taking into account the possibility that cattle grazing grass might indeed ingest something resembling processed grain products - the naturally occurring seed heads. I do not personally think grazing seeded out plants that are normally grown specifically for grain harvest would constitute "grass fed". I will leave the legal definitions to those who would care. :tiphat:

 

[Hippie Rancher]

As is not being able to feed corn, but corn gluten is OK to feed to " GRASS"?-fed ( my arse) cattle.

Not sure where you are getting the corn gluten thing?

And if you bother researching those who are promoting grass-fed cattle you will find that there is government grant money involved. Therefore profit is not the motivating force behind it.
Hows that? Your turn. :wave:
SL

Huh? grant money but no profit motive? Makes no sense. What is wrong with grant money? Why would a receiving a grant have any effect on profit motive? Corn producers don't get any subsidies do they? I bet Monsanto gets lots of grants (and probably awards them out as well) - what do grants have to do with it?

Lots of different people promote grass fed, including a heck of a lot of beef producers. Not sure why this subject threatens you so badly, are you a feedlot operator?

 

[Sir Loin]

Angus/Brangus et al
Re:

The rules stipulate that meat labeled "grass fed" must come from animals fed solely on grasses, hay and other non-grain vegetation."

There it is.

No not really! Because that is only what "Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS)" says USDA rules say. And we all know they are nothing but a bunch of Environmental wackos, radical anti-technology groups and PETA people.
Please quote the USDA's definition, not what USC thinks it says.
URL please.
Re:

And then there are all the private labels of grass fed.

True and every private labeller has the right to define grass-fed as he/she sees fit just like they do when they label their product "select", "choice" or "prime" . Some private labellers have already been using " grass-fed " by their definition to describe their products, for over 20 years. So what's the big deal??
It'd just more smoke and mirrors because it doesn't say USDA "select", "choice" or "prime" and maybe soon "USDA grass-fed".
SL

 

[Sir Loin]

OK boys here we go again, hang onto your hats.!
Re:
By:

October 16, 2007
By: Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS).
New USDA Grass-fed Rules will Benefit Consumers and the Environment
The U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) today announced new rules for labeling meat

IMO: What a crock of BS. Or Propaganda, pure propaganda!!!! ( it must be fund raising time again)

Now I checked every news service I know and found absolutely nothing on USDA announcing anything about grass fed.
But I did find this on the USDA site.
Note the Docket date!
WHAT "New USDA Grass-fed Rules" announced on Oct 16, 2007 that will not be on the docket until 05-09.
Give me a break people! Do some research on some of these wackos before you quote them.

Game over! I win! There is still no scientific OR GOVERNMENTAL definition for grass-fed and therefore it can be anything you, or anyone else wants it to be.
Therefore, any claim that grass-fed has any special benefits over any other manner of feeding is totally erroneous and is nothing but a dog and pony show.

If you got anything from the USDA on this I sure would like to see it!
URL please.
Your turn! :tiphat:
SL

DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

Agricultural Marketing Service

[Docket No. LS-05-09]


United States Standard for Livestock and Meat Marketing Claim,
Grass (Forage) Fed Claim

AGENCY: Agricultural Marketing Service, USDA.

ACTION: Notice and request for comments.

FYI:



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

SUMMARY: The Agricultural Marketing Service (AMS) is soliciting
comments on a revised proposed voluntary

[[Page 27663]]

standard for a grass (forage) fed marketing claim. This proposed
standard incorporates revisions made as a result of comments received
as a result of an earlier published proposed standard. A number of
livestock producers make such claims in order to distinguish their
products in the marketplace. Once a voluntary standard is established,
livestock producers may request that a grass (forage) fed claim be
verified by USDA. Verification of this claim will be accomplished
through an audit of the production process by AMS.

DATES: Comments must be received on or before August 10, 2006.

Source: http://www.ams.usda.gov/LSG/stand/ls0509.txt

 

[Sir Loin]

Angus/Brangus
Re:

Focus on the definition from the USDA.

What definition from the USDA? See below post.
Re:

you might feel threatened by this marketplace IF you are in the feedyard business but,

I am in a some what feedyard business, but I am not threatened in the least as I know for fact that it is nothing but a dog and pony show from first hand experience.
Re:

because this "natural"/"grass-fed"/"organic" marketplace IS a NICHE

A niche market for what? I don't know what you are talking about because you have not defined it.
Define: "natural"/"grass-fed"/"organic".
Her is an advertiser who advertised on this very board.
Read it in its entirety and tell me if this fits your definition of grass-fed.
http://www.tallgrassbeef.com/

If it does lets agree to use his definition as we discuss this further.
OK?
SL

 

[SouthFla]

There is still no scientific OR GOVERNMENTAL definition for grass-fed and therefore it can be anything you, or anyone else wants it to be.

Heaven help us if we have to rely on the government for a definition.

I prefer Mirram Webster.

Grass : any plant of the family Gramineae, having jointed stems, sheathing leaves, and seedlike grains.

Grain : a small, hard seed, esp. the seed of a food plant such as wheat, corn, rye, oats, rice, or millet.

Fed: past tense of feed.

So,

1. grass-fed : previously ate any plant of the family Gramineae, having jointed stems, sheathing leaves, and seedlike grains.

2. grain-fed : previously ate a small, hard seed, esp. the seed of a food plant such as wheat, corn, rye, oats, rice, or millet

Grass has seedlike grains?

Grain is seed?

 

[Sir Loin]

SouthFla.
Re:

Grass has seedlike grains?

Grain is seed?

Yes and yes!

Now for your homework.
Define legume.

Night all! :wave:
SL

 

[IluvABbeef]

Please define:
1. grass fed
2. grain fed
3. truly organic (is truly organic the same thing as all natural? )

Q. what is the main difference between grass and grain fed?
Q. why would anyone want to eat grass fed and not grain fed?

SL

From the Canadian Oxford Dictionary:

Grass:
a) Vegetation belonging to a group of small plants with green blades that are eaten by cattle, horses, sheep, etc.
b) any species of this
c) any plant of the family Gramineae (or Poaceae), which includes cereals, reeds, and bamboos.

Grain:
a) wheat or any other ceral plant used as food (for humans, that is)
b) their fruit
c) any particular species of cereal plant (barley, canola, wheat, millet, corn, rye, etc.)

Therefore, grass fed is an animal is solely fed vegetation belonging to a group of small plants with green blades belonging to the family Gramineae (or Poaceae) including cereals (the vegetation portion of), reeds, and bamboos. This does not include the portion of CEREALS which are seeds (grain).

Grain fed on the other hand, is the seed portion of cereals fed to cattle, sheep, etc. at any time in there lives, either as supplemental feed or otherwise.

Organic: produced or involving production without the use of chemical fertilizers, pesticides, hormones, antibiotics, etc. Natural, on the other hand, is food containing no additives, preservatives, or other artificial ingredients.

This is getting way too confusing, a good brain-stretcher nonetheless, and a good read, but confusing.

 

[hrbelgians]

SouthFla.
Re:

Grass has seedlike grains?

Grain is seed?

Yes and yes!

Now for your homework.
Define legume.

Night all! :wave:

SL

Thought this was too good to pass up.

L= Lets
E= Eat
G= Great
U= Ungrained
M= Meat
E= Entr'ees
:banana: :tiphat:

 

[Hippie Rancher]

Thought this was too good to pass up.

L= Lets
E= Eat
G= Great
U= Ungrained
M= Meat
E= Entr'ees
:banana: :tiphat:

:lol2: :lol2: :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[Sir Loin]

OK people, I really don't have time for all these silly games so let's get with the program.
Now either you are denser then lead or you are pulling my chain by acting ignorant of the facts put before you.

Now I gave you a sight where you can find one marketer's definition of grass-fed. READ IT!
http://www.tallgrassbeef.com/
You will find Tallgrass's definition under " Partner with us" . Select "rancher or farmer" scroll down to "file downloads" and click on "Producer Protocols Document ".
And there you will find Tallgrass's definition of "GRASS_FED". Everything else on their site is propaganda, or if you prefer advertisement. This is the contractual agreement between the rancher/farmer and Tallgrass to produce Grass-fed beef as defined by Tallgrass.
Other purveyors of grass-fed beef have their own protocol which may or may not be the same as Tallgrass's.
Therefore: The definition of "grass-fed" is what ever you/they want it to be, just like the word "breed" is defined by the breeder.
Now, in part, here is Tallgrass's definition of "grass-fed" for discussion.
Do you agree with this part of Tallgrass's definition as being part of the definition of "grass-fed"?
This only call for a yes or no answer.
And please use a #2 pencil
Your turn :tiphat:
SL

Tallgrass Beef Company
Product Verified Program Protocols
1) Ident if ication:
Recorded documents must be available for any animal accepted into the TBC program from
birth through point of sale. All animals in the program should be identified with an
electronic ID tag, or another Tallgrass Beef Company (TBC) approved individual animal ID
tag, no later than weaning age (8 months maximum). Each animal must have an affidavit
that includes breed, age, movement history, veterinary interventions, birth date, weaning
date, and ultrasound data. This affidavit will be required for inclusion in the Tallgrass
Beef™ (TGB) programs and can be used by the producer to improve herd management
decision making. Affidavits must accompany the animals at delivery to the processing
plant. The producer is encouraged to contact TBC if consulting is needed.
2) Diet:
Tal lgrass Beef™: Each animal must remain on its mother's milk for a minimum of 60
days. Once animals are weaned, their diet will be any combination of grass, legumes/forbs
and herbs and/or stored feeds made from grass and legumes such as hay or haylage.
Animals may be finished on grass or stored forage feeds. Prohibited in this diet will be
any feedstuff other than grass, hay or stored forage feeds, unless otherwise approved by
TBC. Prohibited products include grains, corn silage, animal by-products, fish by-products,
bakery by-products, candy, potato products, etc.
If grains, corn silage or other non-TBC approved by-products are fed, the animals consuming
this feedstuff will not be eligible for the Tallgrass Beef™ program but can be candidates for
other Natural programs that are cooperating with TBC.
Absolutely no animal by-products are allowed in feedstuffs provided to animals in the
Tallgrass Beef program. All ruminant, poultry, fish & seafood by-products are
prohibited in feedstuffs. All animals will be harvested at 30 months of age or before.

 

[Hippie Rancher]

I don't have any issues with Tallgrass's feed protocols.

I already gave you my definition of grass fed. How about tossing in some more catagories like about pasture or range raised? :mrgreen: That way my "naturally" raised animals can eat some other plants besides grass like those leguminous mesquites. :banana: :wave:


edit: left out a word needed for sentence structure

 

[Sir Loin]

Hippie Rancher
Re:

I don't have any issues with Tallgrass's feed protocols.

Nor do I.
The TBC program is probably the most encompassing that I have read, except for maybe one.
That is why I chose this one for discussion purposes.

Re:

How about tossing in some more categories like about pasture or range raised?

Thanks for the suggestion but I would rather finish grass-fed vs. grain-fed first as that is what Karin has an interest in learning about and I don't want to hijack her topic.
SL

 

[Sir Loin]

OK Karin (are you still out there?) here we go we have one definition of grass-fed.
I think "1) Identification:" is pretty well self explanatory.
As for " 2) Diet:" this is where it gets a little bit harder so lets take it one thing at a time.

Each animal must remain on its mother's milk for a minimum of 60
days.

Understandable!
No problem here but it is worth noting as this excludes all bottle fed calves. All my orphans by this definition can not be sold as grass-fed.
So I will leave that diet requirement out of my definition/protocal and I can still advertise them as grass-fed.

Once animals are weaned, their diet will be any combination of grass, legumes/forbs
and herbs and/or stored feeds made from grass and legumes such as hay or haylage.

Now go slow here as there is a lot of information in that one sentence.

Hello! "Once animals are weaned" this tells me prior to weaning creep feeding of any kind of feed is OK, which can include grains.
"Once animals are weaned, their diet will be any combination of grass,". OK no problem here!
"legumes/forbs". Hold it just one minute, back that truck up!
Both soybeans and corn are legumes. HUmmmmmm! Please take note of that when we get to discussing grain-fed.
Hummm! "stored feeds made from" "legumes such as hay or haylage". Tallgrass would have to explain that one to me because I'm not sure what they are trying to say with that.

Now I will stop here because I am sure some of you peeps will have something to say about that.
Your turn :tiphat:
SL