Genome of a Bull

[inyati13]

I think the genetic discussion is too simplistic...most genes are not simply dominant:recessive. Heck, most of the observed phenotype faults we see are probably caused by multitudes of genes being either over expressed, under expressed, a gene completely faulty, etc. Even in the most simple organisms on earth (bacteria) there are simple phenotypic traits that are influenced by many (tens) of genes. So to say for every gene expressed there is a homolygous gene not expressed is really a huge oversimplification of the entire system as there may be 20 total genes that go into producing that phenotype. Environment can also play a very large role in which genotypic expression pattern is observed.

As to the difference between a higher priced bull vs. a lower priced bull...I don't think genotype plays that much into it...I think it is breeder name recognition and buyers wanting the prestige of owning the "name". I am not an expert by any means, but if one does not have a name in this business you are not going to sell many high priced bulls for breeding stock. At least not in my area. There is a guy a county over from me who has a lot of big name bulls in the pedigrees of his animals and he has to sell at very moderate prices...my guess is if these bulls were sold by a "name" breeder they would bring thousands more per animal.

Just some of my thoughts, I hope they add to the discussion.

Tim

Tim, you are preaching to the preacher. I agree 100 %. A forum is not the perfect format for a discussion. But you have to do the best you can. These are issues breeders struggle with. I appreciate that you posted this. If I said it, people would think I was being a smart-a$$

 

[inyati13]

Tim, you are correct also about reputation selling bulls. Rocking P can sell a bull with one back leg missing. I have no way to compete at their level. However, I have a marketing strategy that I think will help me.

Your post is greatly appreciated. Thanks

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Ron why don't you call Geneseek get you some sample cards and test your cattle yourself. It will cost you 40 dollars a sample for the gold test.

 

[inyati13]

Ron why don't you call Geneseek get you some sample cards and test your cattle yourself. It will cost you 40 dollars a sample for the gold test.

What is the Gold test? I sent a Geneseek sample out yesterday for parental verification.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

It is a igenity dna profile. Call them have them to explain it to you. Gives you markers for several traits.

 

[Ebenezer]

Just an opinion: When and if the genetic testing becomes accurate, can pinpoint all genes responsible for given or specific traits and "control" breeding decisions, the obvious will be that all animals are flawed in some way. This does not even account for the noise that accompanies each conception that can introduce faults and defects in new individuals. We all see the future in different ways. I think that we will learn that once companies or associations have the mass of data, livestock will undergo the GMO process to swap genes and create super what-evers: milkers, meat, maternal, ... These will be expensive, controlled and folks like you and me will be buyers of the high dollar products, if available to the common man, or our cattle and other livestock will be viewed as two day old bread.

But that is a long way off in the USA, I hope. I assume it is happening in some forms in other countries. In the meanwhile, I will raise livestock with proper conformation and function with an eye to improve as I can.

 

[inyati13]

Just an opinion: When and if the genetic testing becomes accurate, can pinpoint all genes responsible for given or specific traits and "control" breeding decisions, the obvious will be that all animals are flawed in some way. This does not even account for the noise that accompanies each conception that can introduce faults and defects in new individuals. We all see the future in different ways. I think that we will learn that once companies or associations have the mass of data, livestock will undergo the GMO process to swap genes and create super what-evers: milkers, meat, maternal, ... These will be expensive, controlled and folks like you and me will be buyers of the high dollar products, if available to the common man, or our cattle and other livestock will be viewed as two day old bread.

But that is a long way off in the USA, I hope. I assume it is happening in some forms in other countries. In the meanwhile, I will raise livestock with proper conformation and function with an eye to improve as I can.

Interesting and logical insight. It is also sad. There is something lost when science replaces the things we are most fond of. I enjoy the contact with my cows. I too see a day probably after my elements are returned to the earth when the husbandry of livestock is nothing more than solvent green.

 

[inyati13]

It is a igenity dna profile. Call them have them to explain it to you. Gives you markers for several traits.

RBB, I missed you last year in Springfield by about an hour. Kris said you visited her stalls at the Empire State Fair.

I am thinking I need to coordinate that testing through ASA. Thanks.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

I don't know about ASA but NALF only applies it to the EPD's I would rather have the profile myself.

 

[inyati13]

Just an opinion: When and if the genetic testing becomes accurate, can pinpoint all genes responsible for given or specific traits and "control" breeding decisions, the obvious will be that all animals are flawed in some way. This does not even account for the noise that accompanies each conception that can introduce faults and defects in new individuals. We all see the future in different ways. I think that we will learn that once companies or associations have the mass of data, livestock will undergo the GMO process to swap genes and create super what-evers: milkers, meat, maternal, ... These will be expensive, controlled and folks like you and me will be buyers of the high dollar products, if available to the common man, or our cattle and other livestock will be viewed as two day old bread.

But that is a long way off in the USA, I hope. I assume it is happening in some forms in other countries. In the meanwhile, I will raise livestock with proper conformation and function with an eye to improve as I can.

Interesting and logical insight. It is also sad. There is something lost when science replaces the things we are most fond of. I enjoy the contact with my cows. I too see a day probably after my elements are returned to the earth when the husbandry of livestock is nothing more than solvent green.

Correction: Soylent Green. A 1973 Science Fiction Thriller. Charlton Heston.

 

[Bestoutwest]

I'll use the rodeo cattle world, b/c I studied that a lot back when I was in it. There were a ton of guys that were selling bulls, heifers, and straws from a bull that was a son of so-and-so. This bull never bucked for squat or was 'hurt as a yearling' (ie he sucked). But because of his bloodlines he was kept around. The bull in question always had a great pedigree, papered out the a$$. And there were always videos to support that he was 'a producer.' There was usually a calf or two that bucked great, once, when the camera was rolling. What killed me was that guys were lining up to buy offspring/genetics from those bulls for way bigger money than bulls that had been on the trail and had produced 'quietly' (by that I mean without a lot of promotion by the owner). If you visit the ABBI website, the top producing sires in the industry are all bulls that bucked pretty well themselves. This has led me to believe that phenotype trumps genotype everyday. When there was a bull that was papered AND a great bucker, he seemed to produce even better than a bull that just bucked.

My :2cents: :hide:

 

[elkwc]

I could list many examples of where the new Genomic enhanced EPD's of a few breeds has either failed or in my opinion used in the wrong way. A member of a family ranch not far from me was featured in a breed article a few years ago about how he had pushed for the ranch to start selecting the heifers they retained by their Genomic EPD. He mentioned in the article how he had those doing the selection of replacements to do it as they had in the past then he showed them the Genomic EPD's and had them to do the selection by them. He said it was surprising how they had been culling some of what showed to be the best replacements. No visual evaluation was used to eliminate structural problems, ect. I worked with a coworker whose son worked for them. So was kept updated on how it was going. I said at the time that it would be only a matter of time before problems arose. It was sooner than I expected. Before the first group ever calved issues started. And by the time they calved the first set they had decided to rethink how they used the Genomic EPD. The coworker retired but my understanding is today just 2-3 years later they are using it as an additional tool only. It is like the Genomic ehnanced CE EPD. I've seen real disasters with it. When a bull has a negative BW EPD and in one calf crop jumps to a 6 plus something isn't right with the EPD. So again in my opinion you can't replace good visual inspection and actual data. It will be interesting how this calf grows out. I have seen many pics of Fire Sweep's cattle on this forum. I've really liked many of them and they are why I did some looking for some Sim Angus heifers to look at when I was looking this past year. Didn't never find any for sale to look at before I finally bought all I'm going to buy. I have since seen some and like any breed they vary in quality. I've only seen a few that were close to the quality I've seen from those of Fire Sweep's. I know he knows his cattle so it will be interesting what his view is in 12 months.

 

[inyati13]

Elkwc

Thanks for that report. I wish I understood more about how they can correlate the occurrence of a specific gene or a gene sequence with a qualatative effect on a specific trait. Your report is not a surprise. What they are doing is pushing the limits of science.

In reference to the Dream On calf. He was one of three Dream On embryos Fire Sweep Simmentals put into recipients. I purchased one of the recipients - FSSR Got Milk. Fire Sweep has the other flush mate that was born about the same time as mine. The heifer I purchased from Fire Sweep has been impressive. She has done a magnificent job raising the Dream On calf and has maintained a lot of condition while doing it. The calf is healthy strong and vigorous. Nothing wrong with how she performed raising the calf. I am very pleased with the heifer. I have her AIed to Broadway Due in October.

PS: The Dream On calf IMHO is better in life than the pictures. There are undesirable traits. I just got notification of his EPDs from Fire Sweep today. They are outstanding. The jury is still out.

 

[Lazy M]

It looks like the Dream On bull is known for poor leg structure (if I'm interpreting this right):
http://abs-bs.absglobal.com/beef/simmen ... o=29SM0373

 

[Davemk]

Best of both worlds: find a breeder who linebreeds, culls and keeps. Buy some that he is selling from his keepers. The more similar his environment and management is to yours - the better.

This x10000000. The quickest way to improve a herd of mixed breed cows is to use a Linebred Bull that displays
the traits you want (phenotype) and the genome is more predictable because of the linebreeding. It amazes me that
more people do not understand this concept.

 

[inyati13]

It looks like the Dream On bull is known for poor leg structure (if I'm interpreting this right):
http://abs-bs.absglobal.com/beef/simmen ... o=29SM0373

Are you referring to the red bar graphic with a value -2 to +2?

I think the graphic is intended to depict the relationship of one trait to another trait in an animal. For Dream On, it depicts that the rear legs are his most undesirable trait. For rear legs, Dream On is assessed a score of -1.4. That is not the same as saying "Dream On is known for poor rear leg structure".

There is a previous comment that Dream On has a reputation for poor rear leg structure. The question is can someone provide a documented credible statement that Dream On has poor rear leg structure. Otherwise, it is commentary. Just like what you hear on the major news networks. In court, you call it "hearsay".

 

[Lazy M]

It looks like the Dream On bull is known for poor leg structure (if I'm interpreting this right):
http://abs-bs.absglobal.com/beef/simmen ... o=29SM0373

Are you referring to the red bar graphic with a value -2 to +2?

I think the graphic is intended to depict the relationship of one trait to another trait in an animal. For Dream On, it depicts that the rear legs are his most undesirable trait. For rear legs, Dream On is assessed a score of -1.4. That is not the same as saying "Dream On is known for poor rear leg structure".

There is a previous comment that Dream On has a reputation for poor rear leg structure. The question is can someone provide a documented credible statement that Dream On has poor rear leg structure. Otherwise, it is commentary. Just like what you hear on the major news networks. In court, you call it "hearsay".

Fair point I suppose. Although in court I'd display the red bar graphic and use the pic that you took of your calf as corroborating evidence to my above statement..

 

[inyati13]

It looks like the Dream On bull is known for poor leg structure (if I'm interpreting this right):
http://abs-bs.absglobal.com/beef/simmen ... o=29SM0373

Are you referring to the red bar graphic with a value -2 to +2?

I think the graphic is intended to depict the relationship of one trait to another trait in an animal. For Dream On, it depicts that the rear legs are his most undesirable trait. For rear legs, Dream On is assessed a score of -1.4. That is not the same as saying "Dream On is known for poor rear leg structure".

There is a previous comment that Dream On has a reputation for poor rear leg structure. The question is can someone provide a documented credible statement that Dream On has poor rear leg structure. Otherwise, it is commentary. Just like what you hear on the major news networks. In court, you call it "hearsay".

Fair point I suppose. Although in court I'd display the red bar graphic and use the pic that you took of your calf as corroborating evidence to my above statement..

As the defense attorney for my client Dream On, I would state that the red bar chart is not a comparison of my client to other bulls but a depiction of the relative strengths of his traits. In regard to the calf, I would say the father cannot be tried for a crime committed by the son.

 

[jallen]

But you would be wrong!!

Are you referring to the red bar graphic with a value -2 to +2?

I think the graphic is intended to depict the relationship of one trait to another trait in an animal. For Dream On, it depicts that the rear legs are his most undesirable trait. For rear legs, Dream On is assessed a score of -1.4. That is not the same as saying "Dream On is known for poor rear leg structure".

There is a previous comment that Dream On has a reputation for poor rear leg structure. The question is can someone provide a documented credible statement that Dream On has poor rear leg structure. Otherwise, it is commentary. Just like what you hear on the major news networks. In court, you call it "hearsay".

Fair point I suppose. Although in court I'd display the red bar graphic and use the pic that you took of your calf as corroborating evidence to my above statement..

As the defense attorney for my client Dream On, I would state that the red bar chart is not a comparison of my client to other bulls but a depiction of the relative strengths of his traits. In regard to the calf, I would say the father cannot be tried for a crime committed by the son.

 

[inyati13]

Lazy M,
The burden of proof is on you. The subject is Dream On. The question is whether he is known for a structural defect of his rear legs. Produce a credible documented statement of your indictment of the Number 1 bull in the Simmental Breed. A bull that has sired thousands of ASA registered calves. You cannot look at one picture of a calf and indict the sire. That would be absurd.

Dream On is the sire of 10 of the tops bulls in the Simmental breed such as Steel Force, Pays to Dream, Uno Mas, etc.

The burden is yours.