Genome of a Bull

[Lazy M]

Are you referring to the red bar graphic with a value -2 to +2?

I think the graphic is intended to depict the relationship of one trait to another trait in an animal. For Dream On, it depicts that the rear legs are his most undesirable trait. For rear legs, Dream On is assessed a score of -1.4. That is not the same as saying "Dream On is known for poor rear leg structure".

There is a previous comment that Dream On has a reputation for poor rear leg structure. The question is can someone provide a documented credible statement that Dream On has poor rear leg structure. Otherwise, it is commentary. Just like what you hear on the major news networks. In court, you call it "hearsay".

Fair point I suppose. Although in court I'd display the red bar graphic and use the pic that you took of your calf as corroborating evidence to my above statement..

As the defense attorney for my client Dream On, I would state that the red bar chart is not a comparison of my client to other bulls but a depiction of the relative strengths of his traits. In regard to the calf, I would say the father cannot be tried for a crime committed by the son.

Case closed; the prosecution drops charges as dna tests show that Dream On is not even really the calf's sire..it was the notorious BA bull, Werner War Party..

 

[inyati13]

Lazy M,

I have Werner War Party in my tank. Used him on a Hudson Pine/Rocking P cow. BW 105 pounds. I called him Megadorius. Banded him. I was told he would be a Calving Ease nightmare. One of the most docile calves I have ever had. I still miss the big guy.

 

[Lazy M]

War Party is an awesome bull. I had a son that I really liked that broke his deal as a 4yr old..would've like to have gotten many more calves from him. Made some pretty heifers and like you said they were all extremely good natured

 

[Son of Butch]

It looks like the Dream On bull is known for poor leg structure (if I'm interpreting this right):
http://abs-bs.absglobal.com/beef/simmen ... o=29SM0373

Are you referring to the red bar graphic with a value -2 to +2?

I think the graphic is intended to depict the relationship of one trait to another trait in an animal. For Dream On, it depicts that the rear legs are his most undesirable trait. For rear legs, Dream On is assessed a score of -1.4.

Incorrect - the graph is a linear depiction of the evaluation the phenotype of the bull's offspring.
For legs 0 is the mid point for leg set. minus = degree to the straight side. plus = degree to sickled or set side
For the other traits 0 = breed average

Linear evaluation of Phenotype is only measuring the degree a bull's offspring differ from breed average.
It makes no judgement as to good or bad. +.5 stature is no better or worse than -.5 stature
It all depends on what the cow being bred needs. You want taller offspring use the +.5 stature bull shorter use -.5
The linear measure for Dream On -1.4 = offspring have very straight rear leg set
It is provided to help a breeder decide which individual bull would nick best with his particular cow.
IF the cow is already too straight in her rear legs then a -1.4 leg bull would be a poor choice for her.

Genotype shows which are the good bulls.
Phenotype shows how the good bulls are different.
Both are important parts of a complete and BALANCED breeding program.

 

[inyati13]

Son of Butch,
Thank you for that. Excellent explanation.

 

[Son of Butch]

War Party is an awesome bull. I had a son that I really liked that broke his deal as a 4yr old..would've like to have gotten many more calves from him. Made some pretty heifers and like you said they were all extremely good natured

+1
Outstanding dispositions and War Party really adds body length with very good feet.

 

[elkwc]

War Party is an awesome bull. I had a son that I really liked that broke his deal as a 4yr old..would've like to have gotten many more calves from him. Made some pretty heifers and like you said they were all extremely good natured

+1
Outstanding dispositions and War Party really adds body length with very good feet.

Glad to hear the positive comments about War Party. I recently purchased a daughter of his. She is a 4 y/o out of a Special Design/Future Direction bred cow. Should calve the end of this month. Like stated she is very docile and easy to handle. A nice fair sized stout cow. Will know more after I see her raise a calf or two. She is bred to a son of Hoover Dam. Hope to AI her to a Red Angus bull.

 

[Lazy M]

War Party is an awesome bull. I had a son that I really liked that broke his deal as a 4yr old..would've like to have gotten many more calves from him. Made some pretty heifers and like you said they were all extremely good natured

+1
Outstanding dispositions and War Party really adds body length with very good feet.

Glad to hear the positive comments about War Party. I recently purchased a daughter of his. She is a 4 y/o out of a Special Design/Future Direction bred cow. Should calve the end of this month. Like stated she is very docile and easy to handle. A nice fair sized stout cow. Will know more after I see her raise a calf or two. She is bred to a son of Hoover Dam. Hope to AI her to a Red Angus bull.

Curious about the RA choice. I'd personally prob go with a Hereford sire, or sim or char for terminal. I like RA but really only would use on white, red, or gray cows when I'm trying to get a guaranteed red heifer (which is my fav type of cow)..

 

[elkwc]

+1
Outstanding dispositions and War Party really adds body length with very good feet.

Glad to hear the positive comments about War Party. I recently purchased a daughter of his. She is a 4 y/o out of a Special Design/Future Direction bred cow. Should calve the end of this month. Like stated she is very docile and easy to handle. A nice fair sized stout cow. Will know more after I see her raise a calf or two. She is bred to a son of Hoover Dam. Hope to AI her to a Red Angus bull.

Curious about the RA choice. I'd personally prob go with a Hereford sire, or sim or char for terminal. I like RA but really only would use on white, red, or gray cows when I'm trying to get a guaranteed red heifer (which is my fav type of cow)..

Lazy M I would prefer using a Hereford bull on her. But I've decided that might have to wait a year. I might end up breeding her to one of the Angus bulls in the herd. Really want to go red or black baldie. Whether I AI her or not will depend a lot on when she has her calf. If I do AI her the reason for the Red Angus is the couple that will be doing the AI work own at least a part if not all of Redemption, Legend, Sensational and bred Premier. So if I have them AI her will use one of their bulls they have semen on. I have a few Red Angus heifers they are going to AI in about 2 weeks for me. Then next year I hope to breed them all AI once to a Hereford and used an Angus clean up.

 

[Lazy M]

I bought some heifers bred to Redemption a few years ago. The bull calves didn't grow as fast as I'd like but the heifers were fancy. I kept several and bred them to SAV Bruiser last Nov.
Bruiser is a good bull to consider for this thread; genotypically he has many strong points, but phenotypically I think that he has much to be desired. I used him because of his great radg epd and his calve's strong performance in the Angus Sire Alliance test.
http://abs-bs.absglobal.com/beef/angus. ... o=29AN1782

 

[smoothmule]

It's still a crapshoot unless you do the same for the cows as the bulls. Linebreeding can bring out recessive genes to cull out. None of it is easy or fast. A good eye in choosing bulls and cows can be more useful than genotype but if you ignore genotype, you're not getting anywhere. Phenotype first but develop a long term plan based on the genotype.

 

[Son of Butch]

Linebreeding can bring out recessive genes to cull out. None of it is easy or fast.

Japanese Wagyu make for a great study on the effects of line breeding and inbreeding.
Because Japan is both an island nation and because importing cattle was barred for long periods of time.

Survival of the fittest. In 1900 there were 9 breeds or bloodlines each mostly located in a different region in Japan.
Today only 4 of the 9 lines considered native survived. 5 lines culled themselves from the islands, mostly due to genetic defects relating to reproductive failure, calf mortality or longevity, because of intensive line/inbreeding.

This supports the idea, that when intensively line breeding, no more than 40% of the offspring are suitable as
breeding stock and the other 60% should be fed out as terminal cattle.
My personal opinion is only the top 1/3 of any breeding program should be considered for replacements.