Genemax Results

[NEFarmwife]

It would be a cold day in he!! before I used DNA to help me cull my heifers. I may use it to help pick a bull to better her in some trait, but I'm not putting my eggs in that basket.

We haven't culled based on that alone but it could sure help you. If you got those numbers back, you could dig into your records and determine if she needs to go. I.E. last year she raised a dink. Year before? She lost a calf. In a herd our size, it could be beneficial.

I looked at our records last year before AI. Calving interval. Offspring records. Weaning weight averages, etc... I'd tend to go that route before choosing the DNA. But if I had a small herd that I was trying to develop and make culling decisions, I wouldn't think twice.

 

[Stocker Steve]

For commercial Angus we have Heifer Select and this reports some data to help with heifer selection.
Ken

What benifits have you seen from Heifer Select?

 

[wbvs58]

Steve, I don't have any experience with it, I believe some big commercial operations are trialing it and they are doing they commercial heifer progeny in Angus Australia bull Benchmarking programme where a cohort of about 30 young bulls from Australia and some from overseas including the US have semen inseminated into about 100 commercial heifers from cooperator herds and the progeny are followed through to slaughter for the steers and calving for the heifers. It takes a while to get the info so I haven't seen any follow up on the Heifer Select as yet but they do give very good feed back and reporting. The programme has been going on for about 9 years now but the heifer select only for a couple of years. One thing that has come out of this is that the EBV's of young bulls going into the programme have been pretty reliable after all the data at the end goes in.

Ken

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I'm not talking genetic defects - I'm talking EPD's thru DNA.
I have had my whole herd tested - last year - all cows and replacement heifers. Only reason to add data to ASA's database - not for cull/keep info. Didn't see much difference in their numbers - did not get a breakdown like listed on here. Just have their previous figures and now new ones reflecting the DNA.
I keep records on CE, BW, WW, temperament, frame, etc. As far as fertility, if they stay in my herd, they sure as heck are fertile myrtles - 100% AI with a 65 day calving season (and a few in a fall calving). I have let a few slip into "other" calving season, if something like having twins. But, I cull pretty brutally on structure & fertility.

 

[Bovine breeder]

I know this is a discussion about genotype, but I grabbed a couple pictures of them lined up at the trough. I'm pleased with them from a phenotype perspective as well

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

We can get all the EPD's and DNA info we want - you best be LOOKING at your cattle as part of your cull/keep decisions.
Bovine - your groups looks real good.

 

[UG]

You have a very good point Jeanne. EPDs and genomic profiles are excellent tools, but they don't account for all the factors that need to be accounted for in selecting and breeding cattle. Overall structure, body condition, disposition, feet & legs, teats & udders, hair coat, etc. all need to be evaluated.

Some breeders seem to be so focused on numbers (EPDs and genomics) that they ignore these other important traits. In some of these herds after many years of concentrating primary on the numbers, the fertility in their females has slipped (likely moved some open heifers and cows with sexy numbers to the following calving season when they were open at preg check time). I am also surprised how many "elite" breeders continue to use certain nationally known bulls with fancy numbers, even though these bulls also have reputations for siring long toes, poor dispositions, etc.

 

[cbcr]

The thing with genomic testing and EPD's they are tools, but it seems that too many put too much emphasis on them and then wonder why their herd is not progressing genetically.

We have seen with dairy bulls that were tested using GeneSeek/Neogens Basic test, the USDA Prime test and then having a proof when their daughters came into production.

Looking at the results between the two genomic tests, neither one was better than the other, they both were about 50/50. The difference between these 2 tests is that the Basic test is based on the animals own DNA with no influence on the outcome from the parents. The USDA Prime test includes information from the parents (if known).

When the bulls finally had enough daughters for a proof and comparing them between the two test about half of them were closer to their genomic Basic test result, the other half was closer to the USDA Prime test.

Their has been breeders that have been trying to breed the next superstar of the dairy world and some of them are doing so with genomic tested animal. Many breeder thought they hit a home run until the bull came out with a proof and the animals they thought would be so valuable ended up just being another milk cow and are now being used as recips.

 

[Stocker Steve]

So there is a lot of variation, and you need to breed a thousand "next superstar"s to have confidence in getting one?

 

[Ebenezer]

So there is a lot of variation, and you need to breed a thousand "next superstar"s to have confidence in getting one?

Something like that. Unless the cow is prepotent, you are linebreeding or the genes all link correctly on that day for you. Otherwise, the great bull will sire 1000's of sons and only a handful will ever be "top end" and those will have fallout after their calves are on the ground. Sorting by numbers in a line crossed agenda has consequences.

 

[Stocker Steve]

What percent of cows would be expect to be prepotent?

 

[Bovine breeder]

There are currently 189 Holstein bulls on the ABS dairy bullsearch Page. When you sort them for being daughter proven, the list drops to 22. They're accelerating the generation interval by using genomics to help them identify the best ones early on. And it's working or they wouldn't still be on the plane they are now. I'm not suggesting dairy and beef are totally the same, but the DNA information is right and it has value for all segments of the industry. You saw the picture of my replacements. Phenotypically, they're all very similar. But the Genemax revealed 805 was a bit inferior to the rest. Can you tell which she is or why she's inferior by looking at the picture? That's the kind of information I want from genomics, and I how I want to improve my cattle

 

[Ebenezer]

What percent of cows would be expect to be prepotent?

A non-linebred prepotent cow is a gift. By linebreeding, you increase the %. If you want a number 15% or less. There is not a real shortage of cattle with great traits. There is a shortage of cattle which can uniformly contribute functional and economically useful traits to their offspring in a high % of cases. Take any sale catalog that has multiple sons and daughters of a featured bull or a flush cow. They never sell for the same $'s and they are never perceived to be totally equal.

We have chosen to forget more about livestock breeding in the past century than we really want to admit. Today we look over the fence for answers.

 

[Ebenezer]

There are currently 189 Holstein bulls on the ABS dairy bullsearch Page. When you sort them for being daughter proven, the list drops to 22. They're accelerating the generation interval by using genomics to help them identify the best ones early on. And it's working or they wouldn't still be on the plane they are now. I'm not suggesting dairy and beef are totally the same, but the DNA information is right and it has value for all segments of the industry. You saw the picture of my replacements. Phenotypically, they're all very similar. But the Genemax revealed 805 was a bit inferior to the rest. Can you tell which she is or why she's inferior by looking at the picture? That's the kind of information I want from genomics, and I how I want to improve my cattle

And the dairy farmers have benefited economically?

If 805 lasts years longer, has not problems, can transmit good traits to her offspring and does all that is expected of her, is she a cull? I see a pen of open heifers and know that in 5 years the average heifer will be gone for most folks. I would have a problem culling an 805 because some trait is a little low. She might be the one to go long term. The gene tests tell us the potential of the current animal and not it's ability to transmit.

 

[Stocker Steve]

What percent of cows would be expect to be prepotent?

A non-linebred prepotent cow is a gift. By linebreeding, you increase the %. If you want a number 15% or less.

Sounds right. But some are prepotent good, and some are prepotent bad.

Have a cow and her daughter, both fat, both marked the same, and both bred back late this year.
Coincidence or bad seed?

 

[Ebenezer]

What percent of cows would be expect to be prepotent?

A non-linebred prepotent cow is a gift. By linebreeding, you increase the %. If you want a number 15% or less.

Sounds right. But some are prepotent good, and some are prepotent bad.

Have a cow and her daughter, both fat, both marked the same, and both bred back late this year.
Coincidence or bad seed?

Opinion and a bit of experience. Breed back issue is genetic. Fat is not a sign of fertility -so some environmental and genetic effects. Life's too short for so-so.

 

[CattleMan1920]

So there is a lot of variation, and you need to breed a thousand "next superstar"s to have confidence in getting one?

Something like that. Unless the cow is prepotent, you are linebreeding or the genes all link correctly on that day for you. Otherwise, the great bull will sire 1000's of sons and only a handful will ever be "top end" and those will have fallout after their calves are on the ground. Sorting by numbers in a line crossed agenda has consequences.

Do you have conclusive evidence to support this presupposition? Or is this just your opinion? Why breed AI or to a "great bull" if the only result is going to be a field full of duds, not studs?

 

[Bovine breeder]

[/quote]
And the dairy farmers have benefited economically?

If 805 lasts years longer, has not problems, can transmit good traits to her offspring and does all that is expected of her, is she a cull? I see a pen of open heifers and know that in 5 years the average heifer will be gone for most folks. I would have a problem culling an 805 because some trait is a little low. She might be the one to go long term. The gene tests tell us the potential of the current animal and not it's ability to transmit.[/quote]

I think they have benefitted from the use of genomics, maybe in the sense that the less progressive ones are no longer in business, and the ones using the best genetics available are still surviving. and if 805 does all those things, shes definitely not a cull just because the Genemax test said so. Actually i really hope she does all that and proves me wrong. But i do believe the test is correct in identifying differences within the cattle. She is still far superior than the old cows i tested, so i'll keep her and give her a shot.

How does a Genomic test tell us about their genetic potential, but not tell us their ability to transmit traits to their progeny?

 

[Ebenezer]

How does a Genomic test tell us about their genetic potential, but not tell us their ability to transmit traits to their progeny?

The test better defines the individual. there is supposed to be a clearer defined potential. Transmission to the next generation has always been the gamble. Still is.

 

[Ebenezer]

So there is a lot of variation, and you need to breed a thousand "next superstar"s to have confidence in getting one?

Something like that. Unless the cow is prepotent, you are linebreeding or the genes all link correctly on that day for you. Otherwise, the great bull will sire 1000's of sons and only a handful will ever be "top end" and those will have fallout after their calves are on the ground. Sorting by numbers in a line crossed agenda has consequences.

Do you have conclusive evidence to support this presupposition? Or is this just your opinion? Why breed AI or to a "great bull" if the only result is going to be a field full of duds, not studs?

Not discussing extremes. Did not say great or duds. You did. Same as your $1000 sale barn bull strawman.