The results are in on SAV America 8018

[CattleMan1920]

100% is an unrealistic goal and will always lead to disappointment.
I know nothing of Kentucky, but the heat and humidity has been close to unbearable here this week.

I think it's unbearable everywhere. Good Lord. I need gills.

It cracked 75 today here, really no humidity, might hit 80 tomorrow, lows will be in the 50's. There are two distinct seasons to live in the NW, summer and winter....but to be fair we only have two seasons.

Wow! That's really nice

 

[CreekAngus]

I think it's unbearable everywhere. Good Lord. I need gills.

It cracked 75 today here, really no humidity, might hit 80 tomorrow, lows will be in the 50's. There are two distinct seasons to live in the NW, summer and winter....but to be fair we only have two seasons.

Wow! That's really nice

Now to the real information, we are already feeding hay here, pastures are almost dried up. We've had more rain this summer than normal, but not enough to maintain pasture.

 

[NEFarmwife]

I agree, I should have had 100% success, I really feel disappointed in such poor performance, hence the reason I'm setting up another group shortly and doing it all over again, and again, and again, till the cows come home. No time to rest.

Might I suggest, you do the 30 day? I think it would be your best bet but there are reasons people don't breed in this heat.

That rate is not exceptional, especially when holding over all those girls to breed to one bull. Time IS money.

Again, I agree, I should not have been satisfied with anything less than 100% conception. There is someone in my county that AI's, they tell me that it's rare that one ever comes back open. They are legends, but I'm afraid truth isn't aligned with reality. At least I posted my Biopryn results, I just have to go on the "word" of others.

I will consider the 30 day. I went on the advice of my ABS rep, as far as 7 day.

Like I said, I was reading about TAI on a Facebook forum and after hearing others results, I felt pretty good.

My ABS rep said the results were good.

As for breeding in this heat, it's tough, I probably would have gotten 7 for 8 if it had been in November.

FYI, on the advice of Ron and the data from the Moo Monitor, I didn't wait till 66 hours to breed. Most of them came into very strong heats at least 10 hours ahead of time, we bred them according to the data we were seeing, and when Ron said "go for it!" Glad I listened. At 66 hours exactly, most of them according to the Moo Monitor were finished with their heats. It would have been too late if we had followed the "textbook"

I'm just saying that from real experience, that I think your best bet for a heat would be to use the 30 day. You bred 8. We breed 100+ a day on TAI. That's a lot of money invested. We can't fool around with what "may" work and if you're battling less than ideal conditions, give them a slight edge.

We did our preg checks last week. Even with our flooding, poor muddy conditions, and extreme stress during breeding... we are 84%.

 

[CattleMan1920]

https://www.drovers.com/article/realistic-expectations-estrous-synchronization-and-ai-programs

 

[CattleMan1920]

Might I suggest, you do the 30 day? I think it would be your best bet but there are reasons people don't breed in this heat.

That rate is not exceptional, especially when holding over all those girls to breed to one bull. Time IS money.

Again, I agree, I should not have been satisfied with anything less than 100% conception. There is someone in my county that AI's, they tell me that it's rare that one ever comes back open. They are legends, but I'm afraid truth isn't aligned with reality. At least I posted my Biopryn results, I just have to go on the "word" of others.

I will consider the 30 day. I went on the advice of my ABS rep, as far as 7 day.

Like I said, I was reading about TAI on a Facebook forum and after hearing others results, I felt pretty good.

My ABS rep said the results were good.

As for breeding in this heat, it's tough, I probably would have gotten 7 for 8 if it had been in November.

FYI, on the advice of Ron and the data from the Moo Monitor, I didn't wait till 66 hours to breed. Most of them came into very strong heats at least 10 hours ahead of time, we bred them according to the data we were seeing, and when Ron said "go for it!" Glad I listened. At 66 hours exactly, most of them according to the Moo Monitor were finished with their heats. It would have been too late if we had followed the "textbook"

I'm just saying that from real experience, that I think your best bet for a heat would be to use the 30 day. You bred 8. We breed 100+ a day on TAI. That's a lot of money invested. We can't fool around with what "may" work and if you're battling less than ideal conditions, give them a slight edge.

We did our preg checks last week. Even with our flooding, poor muddy conditions, and extreme stress during breeding... we are 84%.

Consider yourself WAY above average.

As Ron said, detecting heats in these high temps is tough. Even with the collars, you may only see a mild heat, the cattle just aren't moving much.

I think we are making it sound easier and less expensive than it really is, don't you think? CT members need to know that fact.

I find it surprising that you think I was "fooling" around.

From reading University of Nebraska research, significant data samples suggest an average success rate in the low 50% rate for TAI. We achieved 62.5%. They also said that the condition of the cows plays a huge role in the success of the TAI. They apparently need to be in top shape, not scrounging for their next meal, hence the "micro managed" herd. I don't particularly want to waste America semen, so I tried to follow the advice of professionals and research to get the best results possible.

 

[NEFarmwife]

What I don't find surprising, is that you managed to twist my words AGAIN and insinuate, almost purposefully... that I said you're fooling around.

I said "we don't have time to fool around"... and for what it's worth, you and I are not we.

 

[Ky hills]

For what it's worth, I would say that the 65 or whatever % conception from TAI was pretty good. I quit AI because that is the desired protocol these days and our results over the course of 4 or 5 years was anywhere from 60 down to 30, and one year 10 head of registered Angus cows and heifers was a total 0.
These cattle are not the best in the world like the OP, and don't have the best of the best of everything, however I am confident that they don't lack for much. For a reference, 25 or so years ago we were AI'ing registered Charolais, using the conventional 2 rounds of Lutalyse and watching them at night and morning starting two days after the last round of Lute, and then breeding approximately 12 after observed standing heat. Those cows were 1400-1800 lbs, and in good condition, but admittedly my mineral program at that point was a joke by todays standards. they got different color salt blocks depending on the season, and loose Hi mag mineral during the late winter, and spring. We managed to get as much as 90% conception with them, most of the time, 80% would have been very low %. I have never seen those results with the cidrs, and TAI, even with a far better mineral and nutrition regimen.
For a registered breeder, I get where AI is beneficial, but from a commercial standpoint where I am now, I think it is a waste of my time and money. If I have to maintain cleanup bulls for 40% or more then I just as well let the bulls do all the work, and have a more uniform calving season. It may be not yield as many calves in a short period, which is a good thing, but that bull has a far better chance of getting them bred 1st time, and if not most are by the second. After the AI fiasco our calving was spread out into the summer. After a couple of years of natural service it is getting back on track.
I do know several commercial outfits that AI, but I think they likely do it pretty early before it gets too hot.

 

[Katpau]

Your AI success rate is very acceptable. Unfortunately, 100% is only going to happen when you breed a small number of cows and everything goes perfect. It is mostly luck. We use timed AI, but do add in some heat detection here. Cows are synchronized and then bred 12 hours after standing heat is observed. We have had years where conception was 100% (only 13 cows AI'd that year) and years where we only settled 40% by AI. Protocols were the same, but results have varied. We usually only AI the top cows in the herd, so most times that is less than 20 cows. Over the last 9 years our AI success rate was 60.9% with one AI tech and 70.7% with another. Our more successful tech spent 40 years working with dairy cows and is good, but he's in his late 80's now and the last 2 years he seems to struggle more on the cows he breeds later in the day.

I don't really mean to rain on your parade, but I am curious why America is exciting to you? I am really struggling to find something about him that would make me want to use him. I know he sold in February for the highest ever recorded price for a beef bull, but his papers are still in the original owner's name. That makes that price suspicious to me. I can't find a single photo of him beyond those taken when he was still just a calf. I am not usually one to gamble on an unproven bull, and this one seems especially risky.

He was, according to hype, the heaviest calf weaned at Schaff, but has no genomic profile to back up his EPDs. The heaviest bull ever weaned on this ranch, produced average weaning weights in his offspring, just as his genomics predicted. It is common knowledge that many bulls producing exceptional weaning weights in their offspring, were quite average in their own weaning weights and it is even more common for bulls with exceptional weaning weights to have disappointing weaning weights in their offspring.

The owners spent $63 to run the genetic condition bundle and parentage verification.
For $55 they could have had had both those plus a genetic profile. The only reason I can think of for spending more for less, is fear it would probably lower his $W number. Even without those genomics, America is not impressive in carcass characteristics and scores in the lowest 75% for marbling, which doesn't bother me at all, but is an important trait to many buyers of terminal bulls. His EPD for heifer pregnancy is in the bottom 90%, his EPD for calving ease in his daughters is in the bottom 85%, his $M for all maternal qualities is in the bottom 85% and that unproven weaning weight number plus the resultant high $W are the only things that I see as impressive. If he ends up breeding like those numbers predict he could be a good terminal bull for producers, who don't retain ownership, but a poor choice for making replacements and for those who sell their cattle on the grid. If I had semen on him, the first thing I would do, is use it to run a genomic profile. Although it might hurt his WW & YW, I would think the odds are that it might improve some other numbers that are more important to me, since my AI is geared towards making replacements.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Here is my rationale

I love the President progeny we have, really wish we had bred a lot more to him. America is his son.

I think Blackcap May 4136 was a phenomenal cow, not to mention Madame Pride 0075. they have almost $15 million in progeny sales between the two. That is simply not a fluke. Their progeny are in high demand by real cattlemen. How else do you explain the success of SAV and their sales each year, they are NOT a one-hit-wonder.

By using America, I get President, Blackcap May 4136, Madame Pride 0075, introduced in one pedigree. Even more so when I breed America to my Raindance daughters, which will put 4136 in there twice.

As for the carcass scores, that is where my cows excel. A large percentage of my herd is well above the breed average for MARB and $G. My herd is probably TOO maternal if such a thing exists. High HP on many cows, high CED numbers. Extreme DMI and $EN on a large percentage.

Not sure if you saw my recent posts but I have an Elation and President daughter that both had the "Targeting the Brand" logo, they are DNA tested as well. According to the logic above, they should not have been able to pull that off, but the dams balanced out those bulls.

I'm breeding practically my entire herd to America. It's a big roll of the dice, but I'm feeling highly confident that what I'm doing will work out very well.

I've got big, deep-bodied Mommas, but too many of them are extreme on DMI, $EN, CED, CEM, HP, and Milk, as well as $G and MARB. America is going to fit right into the equation as far as I'm concerned.

Again, I can't stress enough how much I want, as much Blackcap May 4136 and Madame Pride 0075 in the future pedigrees as I can. Once I get that taken care of, then I will focus on getting as much Sandpoint Blackbird 8809 into those progeny. It's a multi year effort. Creek said he wanted to see five years out. I just gave it to him on a silver platter. This plan will take years, but it will happen, and it will be special.

As Jeanne expressed a while back, I'm in the business of building females, the bulls are icing on the cake, but my entire focus is on females. SAV has some SERIOUS females, there is no denying that.

 

[Ebenezer]

Here is my rationale

I love the President progeny we have, really wish we had bred a lot more to him. America is his son.

I think Blackcap May 4136 was a phenomenal cow, not to mention Madame Pride 0075. they have almost $15 million in progeny sales between the two. That is simply not a fluke. Their progeny are in high demand by real cattlemen. How else do you explain the success of SAV and their sales each year, they are NOT a one-hit-wonder.

By using America, I get President, Blackcap May 4136, Madame Pride 0075, introduced in one pedigree. Even more so when I breed America to my Raindance daughters, which will put 4136 in there twice.

As for the carcass scores, that is where my cows excel. A large percentage of my herd is well above the breed average for MARB and $G. My herd is probably TOO maternal if such a thing exists. High HP on many cows, high CED numbers. Extreme DMI and $EN on a large percentage.

Not sure if you saw my recent posts but I have an Elation and President daughter that both had the "Targeting the Brand" logo, they are DNA tested as well. According to the logic above, they should not have been able to pull that off, but the dams balanced out those bulls.

I'm breeding practically my entire herd to America. It's a big roll of the dice, but I'm feeling highly confident that what I'm doing will work out very well.

I've got big, deep-bodied Mommas, but too many of them are extreme on DMI, $EN, CED, CEM, HP, and Milk, as well as $G and MARB. America is going to fit right into the equation as far as I'm concerned.

Again, I can't stress enough how much I want, as much Blackcap May 4136 and Madame Pride 0075 in the future pedigrees as I can. Once I get that taken care of, then I will focus on getting as much Sandpoint Blackbird 8809 into those progeny. It's a multi year effort. Creek said he wanted to see five years out. I just gave it to him on a silver platter. This plan will take years, but it will happen, and it will be special.

As Jeanne expressed a while back, I'm in the business of building females, the bulls are icing on the cake, but my entire focus is on females. SAV has some SERIOUS females, there is no denying that.

Have you been to SAV and seen these cattle?