Gelbvieh CE EPD change

[JMichal]

Gelbvieh breed released their new EPD's this week. As I thought this may be horrendous for some and a God send for others. The Calving Ease EPD has completely changed. I am a Purebred Gelbvieh Breeder and have been preached to for years to pay close attention to the calving ease EPD and not the actual Birth weight. I have been told by many at the AGA this EPD was the real deal. The last couple years it has been fluctuating considerably. To the point that it really had no value. You could by a Bull that had a calving Ease EPD of 108 (average was 104 and 109 was considered a heifer Bull). The next year the average goes up to 108 and the Bull is a 107. Heifer Bulls are now deemed to be 111 or higher. All the while this Bull has exceptional calves and never a problem. At this point how can anyone have faith in this system.
Fast Forward 1 year to now. New EPD's, proposed to be much more accurate. Not an index anymore. Gelbvieh average is 8, 10 is top 25%, 13 top 5%. This same Bull is now a 2. Bottom 95%. What a frickin joke. Try and sell his calves when you have been concentrating on calving ease for 6 years and known for it. On the flip side I randomly picked a Bull out of Gelbvieh World magazine that had a CE of 100 (very poor ce) he is now a 12. Top 10% of the breed. WTF? I am going to tell my customers it is a BS tool. What else can we do?

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Breed good cattle that work. Screw the numbers. Have some real birth weights on hand to show folks what you got.

 

[JMichal]

Breed good cattle that work. Screw the numbers. Have some real birth weights on hand to show folks what you got.

That's my plan. You know in the area we are in, as you must be fairly close to us. Calving ease and low birth weights are the 1st thing people look at when buying Bulls. Then they look at weaning weights and milk. Now we need to tell them about how the numbers have been all BS. Buyers here are already skeptical. Wait til this crap hits the fan.

 

[double v]

I agree i too have bred for years calving ease and BW bulls and heifers. thinking there trying to help the big boys who bred most of these things out or ruined there numbers. i can tell u this i'm breeding for the best possible animal i can get though using good genetics.

 

[Son of Butch]

The Holstein Breed publishes calving ease % and stillbirth % Holsteins in USA average 8.1% stillbirths for dams of all ages.
They define stillbirth as calf born dead or any calf that dies within 48 hours.
An 8% stillbirth rate is embarassing, but you gotta give 'em credit for tracking it by sire.

If a beef breed is serious about addressing calving problems it should collect stillbirth data along with birthweights.
Telling me how many live calves I can expect after day 2 is important information.
Telling me % expected to need assistance calving is important, BUT it doesn't tell me the end result.
There's no way to measure change if you don't know where you're at to start and the conclusion.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

I like the way you think DoubleV.Good genetics always shine.

 

[kjonesel]

I haven't seen the new numbers but having begun in the dairy industry and now in the Gelbvieh breed I still don't put much stock into the numbers. I have learned that it all comes down to if you can pay your bills after you sell your product. I believe that whatever the scoring system as a breeder we concentrate on raising the score and lose sight at times of making a marketable product. A breeder of fullbloods here in Indiana has some of the best "grass convertors" I have ever witnessed. To me that is what the ultimate objective is.

 

[JMichal]

I haven't seen the new numbers but having begun in the dairy industry and now in the Gelbvieh breed I still don't put much stock into the numbers. I have learned that it all comes down to if you can pay your bills after you sell your product. I believe that whatever the scoring system as a breeder we concentrate on raising the score and lose sight at times of making a marketable product. A breeder of fullbloods here in Indiana has some of the best "grass convertors" I have ever witnessed. To me that is what the ultimate objective is.

The trick here is convincing your customers. They look at these numbers. These numbers are meant to be a tool to prove the genetics. Perhaps the new numbers will work they certainly proved the old ones were pure BS.

 

[double v]

just checked some of my herd, i have some great angus and red angus numbers even though i'm a gelbvieh breeder.

 

[JMichal]

just checked some of my herd, i have some great angus and red angus numbers even though i'm a gelbvieh breeder.

Many of the big boys are running a lot of Balancers. Some have nearly all Balancers. May be why the change was made. Or could be they needed to change to fit the genomic EPDS. When they come out we wil probably see another drastic change.

 

[cow pollinater]

The Holstein Breed publishes calving ease % and stillbirth % Holsteins in USA average 8.1% stillbirths for dams of all ages.
They define stillbirth as calf born dead or any calf that dies within 48 hours.
An 8% stillbirth rate is embarassing, but you gotta give 'em credit for tracking it by sire.

If a beef breed is serious about addressing calving problems it should collect stillbirth data along with birthweights.
Telling me how many live calves I can expect after day 2 is important information.
Telling me % expected to need assistance calving is important, BUT it doesn't tell me the end result.
There's no way to measure change if you don't know where you're at to start and the conclusion.

I agree that stillbirths would be something I'd want to know about if it were a problem but I don't see it being enough of a problem with beef cattle to warrant an epd or proof just for that trait. Remember, with dairy cattle it can get out of hand since the product is the MOTHER. With beef cattle if a few calves show up dead, the rancher is going to take a hard look and change something.

 

[cow pollinater]

As far as breeding to the numbers, I can absolutely understand the "breed what works screw the numbers" philosophy... But as a genetics salesman...just try once in your life to put a bunch of great bulls,some with good numbers and some that have holes on paper, on a 1/4 to 1/2 page with a brief description and a photo that's not really big enough for anyone to see and go present that to customers across the nation that have no knowledge of your reputation or the reputation of any of the bulls competing against yours...
Try it just once... Send me a copy of the catalog first and I can tell you which bulls will fill 90% of your orders and it will very likely not be the "best" bulls. :lol:
If you can get one bull that works on paper and in the pasture it's a goldmine.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

You looked at one of mine on here a while back and liked him pretty good. He even wound up with decent numbers.

 

[cow pollinater]

You looked at one of mine on here a while back and liked him pretty good. He even wound up with decent numbers.

My point is that 90% of customers will look at the numbers and don't know what they're looking at when they look at the bull himself. To someone who knows what they like and why they like it the numbers don't matter as much but for 90% of customers, both of AI genetics and auction bulls, numbers are the selling point.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

I understand your point. It may take these guys a few years but good genetics will rise to the top. There numbers will come back into line.

 

[JMichal]

As far as breeding to the numbers, I can absolutely understand the "breed what works screw the numbers" philosophy... But as a genetics salesman...just try once in your life to put a bunch of great bulls,some with good numbers and some that have holes on paper, on a 1/4 to 1/2 page with a brief description and a photo that's not really big enough for anyone to see and go present that to customers across the nation that have no knowledge of your reputation or the reputation of any of the bulls competing against yours...
Try it just once... Send me a copy of the catalog first and I can tell you which bulls will fill 90% of your orders and it will very likely not be the "best" bulls. :lol:
If you can get one bull that works on paper and in the pasture it's a goldmine.

Exactly