freemartinism in other species

[mom to 4]

Just something I've been wondering about. Does freemartinism occur in other species? In all ruminants? In deer? Anybody know much about it?

 

[msscamp]

Anybody know much about it?

Not a thing, but I did a search and came up with this:

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/ge ... saics.html

 

[Keren]

I know from experience that it doesn't happen in goats, but I'm not sure of the science behind it.

 

[*Cowgirl*]

I know from experience that it doesn't happen in goats, but I'm not sure of the science behind it.

Different Placentas

sorry I meant totally different w/ no mixed antigens
should have elaborated

This website is very interesting for those intereted in learning more. http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/genetics/medgen/chromo/mosaics.html

EDIT: awh crap meant to make this a diffferent post all together I'll do it anyway...........LONGGGGGGGGGG day

 

[milkmaid]

I know from experience that it doesn't happen in goats, but I'm not sure of the science behind it.

Different Placentas

Cattle have separate placentas for each fetus too, but freemartinism occurs when there is a blood transfer between fetuses... ie the placentas grow together, although I do hear it can even happen if the fetuses are in separate uterine horns.

 

[Keren]

I know from experience that it doesn't happen in goats, but I'm not sure of the science behind it.

Different Placentas

Cattle have separate placentas for each fetus too, but freemartinism occurs when there is a blood transfer between fetuses... ie the placentas grow together, although I do hear it can even happen if the fetuses are in separate uterine horns.

After 2 - 3 weeks (cattle, sheep and goats) the conceptus settles in one of the horns but the extra-embryonic membranes (placental membranes) cover both the gravid (inhabited) horn and some of the non-gravid horn. This is essential for maternal recognition of pregnancy - the membranes must cover a certain proportion of the uterus in order for the mother to recognise the pregnancy and maintain the hormones which sustain the embryo. In polyoctus species (more than one embryo ie pigs), intrauterine migration occurs to evenly space the embryos to cover the uterine surface for maternal recognition of pregnancy and thus embryo survival.

From this I would hazard a guess that in cattle bearing two embryos, the spread of the extra-embryonic membranes into both horns results in the contact of placentas and the blood exchange that milkmaid spoke about. Intrauterine migration is rare in single embryo species, thus the embryos cannot avoid the placental contact.

Obviously pigs do not display freemartinism, as the extra-embryonic membranes rarely connect, due to the intrauterine migration and spacing.

As for goats not displaying freemartinism, I'm still unsure why this is. Perhaps the goat conceptus does not spread as much into the non-gravid horn, or some intrauterine migration occurs to space the embryos more evenly.

If anyone could shed more light on the subject, I would be interested to hear it.

 

[Sir Loin]

Re:

Does freemartinism occur in other species?

Yes. Such as sheep, goats, horses, donkeys

In all ruminants?

I don't see why it couldn't.
Is a mule a ruminant ? If so, my answer is no.

In deer?

Yes.
SL

 

[BAGTIC]

Does a cow that has had one freemartin have higher than normal odds of having another?

 

[Sir Loin]

Re:

Does a cow that has had one freemartin have higher than normal odds of having another?

I make it a habit to not answer a question with a question, but that is the only way I can answer this one.

Q. Does a cow that has had twins usually have more then one set of twins?
If your answer is yes, then she is at a higher risk than normal.
If your answer is no, then she is not at a higher risk.
Number of twins born is the only variable as all other factors will remain the same.

In simple terms, as we say in the investment world, "past performance is no indication of future performance".
SL

 

[milkmaid]

Re:

Does freemartinism occur in other species?

Yes. Such as sheep, goats, horses, donkeys

In all ruminants?

I don't see why it couldn't.
Is a mule a ruminant ? If so, my answer is no.

In deer?

Yes.
SL

:???: :???:

FYI, horses, donkeys, mules, and zebras all fall under the classification of equine. Equines are not ruminants.

From the Merck Vet Manual...
Freemartins are sterile females born twin to a male. In cattle with multiple conceptions, the chorionic placental blood vessels form a common circulation between the fetuses prior to sexual differentiation, allowing antimüllerian duct hormone and testosterone secreted by the male to inhibit development of the female tract. In ~92% of cases of mixed-sex twins, the females are sterile. The tubular genital organs in affected animals range from cordlike bands to near normal uterine horns. Freemartins have a short vagina that ends blindly without communication with the uterus. The cervix is absent. The ovaries usually fail to develop and remain small. Normal and freemartin cattle can be differentiated on the basis of length of the vagina and on presence or absence of a cervix. In calves (1-4 wk old), the normal vaginal length is 13-15 cm, while in a freemartin vaginal length is 5-6 cm. Vaginal length is easily measured by gently inserting a well-lubricated probe with a blunt end into the vagina. Cytogenetic examination can demonstrate XX and XY chromosome patterns in freemartins. The interchange of cells that occurs in the placental circulation between the fetuses can also be demonstrated by detecting 2 different blood types in a single animal.

It is NOT normally found in equines, goats, or sheep (the latter of which routinely have two, three, or more lambs). In fact, I don't believe it ever happens in equines. A search of the word "freemartin" on the internet brings up only cattle articles, with the exception of two that I came across, which I'll copy below...

Occasionally a doe is born that cannot become pregnant. A freemartin is a sterile female of a male twin. During fetal development, male hormones can be transferred through placental walls and render a female incapable of breeding. This is a relatively rare situation in most herds. In 15 years of goat production, this writer has seen what she believes to be freemartinism in her herd only one time.
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/artic ... obs06.html

Successful twin pregnancies are very rare in camelids but can occur. Freemartinism has been described in females born co-twin to males.
http://www.ivis.org/advances/camel_Skid ... m.asp?LA=1

If you don't know what you're talking about, SL, please do the newbies a favor and refrain from answering their questions.

 

[peg4x4]

If you have had false information given to you,in the past,you wouldn't know that you don't know what you're talking about,so you would think you didknow what you're talking about..So how do you know that what you know is true?

 

[Sir Loin]

Milkmaid,
Re:

FYI, horses, donkeys, mules, and zebras all fall under the classification of equine. Equines are not ruminants.

True, but the question was "Does freemartinism occur in other species?" which includes subspecies. Those I listed were just a few cases I found.
Q. Have you ever heard of a mule giving birth to twins?
Q. What does an animal's digestive system have to do with their reproductive system?
Re:

If you don't know what you're talking about, SL, please do the newbies a favor and refrain from answering their questions.

Well excuse the he11 out of me. I didn't realize your opinion was the only one allowed on the board.
And just because you couldn't find something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
And thank you for proving I was right about goats and deer. So back at ya!
Now google: horse, Freemartinism

The fact is, there simply hasn't been enough studies done on other then cattle to know the extent of freemartinism in other species.
But no doubt there is some pencil pusher on some university campus somewhere applying for a federal grant right now to do just that.

And please don't forget to address my two previous questions.
Thanks and have a nice day. ;-)
SL

 

[peg4x4]

MOST mules are sterile..The males are gelded without any tests,so they're out of the equation.. Mare mules are rarely bred,as common knowledge is"they're sterile"..I have heard of a mare mule haveing a foal,but that was once..
Almost anything is possable..look up Brindled Horses to see a wild case of"Cymeria"where the foal wasn't kin to its mother,and the sires DNA came back female!!

 

[alabama]

Just something I've been wondering about. Does freemartinism occur in other species? In all ruminants? In deer? Anybody know much about it?

I know that it can occur in people. I know a girl that is a freemartin. She is married and still no kids. Her twin brother is a good friend of mine.

 

[Sir Loin]

Peg 4X4,
Darn you! You're right but I set that trap for milkmaid.
Shame on you for spoiling my fun! :lol: :lol: :lol:
SL

Freemartinism is primarily described in cattle and, although rare, it also occurs in sheep, goats, and swine.

Nevertheless, at least two cases of freemartinism in horses due to chimerism and placental anastomoses were reviewed earlier (Benirschke, 1970).

Source: http://medicine.ucsd.edu/cpa/horse.html

 

[Bama]

for what its worth.

MM may be a youngun compaired to a bunch of us. But she has smarts about cattle far beyond her age.

 

[msscamp]

Peg 4X4,
Darn you! You're right but I set that trap for milkmaid.
Shame on you for spoiling my fun! :lol: :lol: :lol:
SL

:roll: You wasted your time, as I sincerely doubt milkmaid would have been snared. :lol: :lol: :lol: You're going to have to get up a whole lot earlier, and get a whole lot smarter to 'trap' her! ;-)

 

[milkmaid]

Q. Have you ever heard of a mule giving birth to twins?
Q. What does an animal's digestive system have to do with their reproductive system?

#1. Do you have any idea what the chance of a mule even giving birth to ONE offspring is? :???: They're hybrids, and most of the time are as sterile as a Liger or a Zorse.

#2. Absolutely nothing. You were the one that brought it up... "quote: Is a mule a ruminant ? If so, my answer is no." Makes a person wonder if you even have any idea what a mule IS. :roll: :lol2:

And thank you for proving I was right about goats and deer. So back at ya!

I said nothing about deer. I haven't looked them up. The source I quoted mentioned camelids, which happen to be CAMELS.

Now, unless you say something else that is worth replying to, I'm going to leave this topic alone. I have finals next week and way too much to do to waste time arguing with you.

Have a nice day.

 

[milkmaid]

And thanks Bama and msscamp. Really appreciate your comments.

Take care!

 

[msscamp]

And thanks Bama and msscamp. Really appreciate your comments.

Take care!

Simply stating facts. ;-) You too! How is school going? What have you taught your instructors so far?