for those think BC's cant be tough...

[spinandslide]

I present my evidence...

Ornery steer got after Kate..so Fletcher took care of it..

on a side note..Flys are killing me the last week or two..am told the weather change is responsible for this..

 

[bigbull338]

now thats a good dog.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

That's awesome! Thanks for posting. Who is Kate?

 

[Howdyjabo]

Sorry- but tough is proven on the head not the heel. And its not completely proven till after the bite is finished. I have Border Collies that can do that
And REAL tough isn't proven till they get rolled and stomped and come right back for more. I have Border Collies that can do that
And REAL REAL tough is when they are exhausted hot and thirsty and they get rolled/stomped and come back for more. I have Border Collies that can do that
And REAL REAL REAL tough is when 20 mommas are trying to kill one exhausted dog and it keeps going. Don't know if I have a Border Collie that will do that- I am too smart to get in that situation to begin with

but thats a real nice heel bite.

Heres my toughest dog- at 8 months old
Hes proving how tough he is because he isn't having to bite anything(anymore).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OASE6xp ... er&list=UL

 

[cross_7]

Sorry- but tough is proven on the head not the heel. And its not completely proven till after the bite is finished. I have Border Collies that can do that
And REAL tough isn't proven till they get rolled and stomped and come right back for more. I have Border Collies that can do that
And REAL REAL tough is when they are exhausted hot and thirsty and they get rolled/stomped and come back for more. I have Border Collies that can do that
And REAL REAL REAL tough is when 20 mommas are trying to kill one exhausted dog and it keeps going. Don't know if I have a Border Collie that will do that- I am too smart to get in that situation to begin with

but thats a real nice heel bite.

Heres my toughest dog- at 8 months old
Hes proving how tough he is because he isn't having to bite anything(anymore).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OASE6xp ... er&list=UL

8 months old
he looks better than some of my old dogs
good looking pen of calves too.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

That was cool to watch Howdyjabo, thanks for sharing. Great dog.

 

[Isomade]

Impressive Howdy

 

[spinandslide]

your young dog looks good..I wish mine hadnt sat in a backyard the first two years of his life doing nothing before we got him..wish I knew whose program he came from too..hes a really really good dog

with all due respect-this dog can head too..thats the reason hes here..he is a super tough dog that has been rolled, stomped at and mashed into the ground by cattle (and a large stallion and a ram) and he gets right up and keeps going... seems pretty tough to me..

a big area for him to learn to master was the heels and driving animals..the fact he is now utilizing that , to me, shows progress on his part...it was a large mental hurdle for him to overcome...which I was told was not uncommon.

I guess different areas of the country, but around here BC's have a reputation for being to "soft" for cattle..heelers are more desired..hence My chuckling of owning a BC that can "hang" and the reason I posted the picture...they can be pretty tough dogs and dont seem to get a fair shake..at least around here.

 

[spinandslide]

That's awesome! Thanks for posting. Who is Kate?

my other border collie..who is on the timid side..she tries, has gotten better..but I dont think she'll ever cut it on cattle..shes more comfortable on sheep...

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Gotcha.

Neat dogs. I'm leaning towards getting a pair of them myself when time comes.

 

[Howdyjabo]

Didn't mean to offend-- I am coming at this from a different viewpoint.
I get tired of people thinking Border Collies are not tough because they are not biting all the time.
My point is a good heel bite PICTURE is not proving TOUGH--- NOT that your dog isn't tough.
Its easy to get a heel bite picture- most cheaters will take a heel bite because they are too afraid to confront the head.

I figure if you need alot of biting to think your dog is tough stick to heelers or currs- Border Collies are supposed to use their brains and presence more than their teeth. A person that cannot understand that is never going to value a Border Collie no matter how good it is.
Problem is its getting harder and harder to find a good Border Collie for cattle(pet,hobby and trialers are ruining the "breed" for cattle work-- so the naysayers do have a point- but good Border Collies are still out there-- you just have to specifically look for one bred right to work cattle.

Yes driving goes against Border Collie instincts so driving needs to be brought along slowly if its stressing them.
Don't worry about it taking time for a good Border Collie to start to take heel bites- With some, until they are put in a situation where a heel bite is the ONLY way to get a job done they would rather work on the head- thats not a bad thing

 

[cross_7]

i have one that's a good head dog but won't hardly take a heel.
i can give a command for a heel bite and lots of times he has to be told twice.
his problem is he bites too high(hear thats how mccallum line are) and gets kicked every time so he won't try it on his own, but he has no problem taking a nose.
it takes a tough dog to take a kick and keep working.

 

[Howdyjabo]

Do you have a longish chute and headgate?
If so fill up the chute and make your dog push them thru the headgate- that you open too slow(compared to normal chute work) and let one out at a time.If you can time it to let one out just as hes going in for a bite-so it gets a reward of the cattle moving forward after a bite.
Odds are hes not comfortable biting heels therefore pressure is making him do it at a charge instead of just walking into it. Its hard to bite high when they walk into a bite.

Try not to encourage too much- that in itself can cause pressure for the dog- if you do encourage make it as little as possible and lots of praise when he does bite.You can help some dogs by slapping the calves rump and encourage it to join in. Others that will turn them off. It might take some time before he does bite so be patient. It will be a much better bite if he does it because it felt right to him instead of because he felt he had to. I have run calves thru the chute with a dog for days before the dog ever got to where it wanted to really help. Patience is the key. I just content myself with the dog following them up the chute- till something clicks.
Let him do that for awhile and biting heels will be no big deal and he probably won't be biting as high.

I have worked LOTS of McCallums- never had problems with biting high once I slowed them down. McCallums(in general) like to bite so they are a little chargy and not much thought goes into how/why they are biting--- when you first start them. So slowing him down and making him walk into stock might be your answer too.

 

[Lane]

Howdyjabo is 100% correct. Border Collies come in several different types.
That is why we breed "cattle-type" dogs. I start groups of calves weekly and
my dogs have to teach the calves to respect them right in the beginning or
the calves will run over them. Most of the time this consists of a good nose
bite. Not an ear, not the top of the head. After about a week my dogs don't
need to heel much. As dogs get older they generally will heel less. My older
dogs won't hardly bite unless I ask them. I did not teach it they just learned
as a matter of "self-preservation". Watch an old dog - the most effective bite
they can have is on the front foot. They have learned that a heel gets them
kicked, a nose makes the calf jump and possibly land on them, but a front
foot sure gets a calf to turn and leave. If I had to have a dog with bite on just
one end I want want a dog that bites on the front end. I can push, but I need
the dog to stop action and control the cattle.

Lane

 

[spinandslide]

no problem HJ..a picture is a split second in time..

I admit, I am proud of this dog, because I do feel he is very tough..he's convinced my husband, a die hard heeler person, that BC's can get the job done.

the problem I see around here, is the assumption that a BC will use eye and pressence..and when that doesnt work..flakes off..
IMO, a good BC takes the approach of "as little as possible, but as much as needed" and doesnt flake off when a less physical approach isnt working...

I had this issue afew weeks ago with my ram. The ewes were very easy for him to move with eye..the ram constantly challenged him. I asked my stockdog instructor about this..her reply was "hes gotta toughen up" and to kinda encourage him to escalate abit..not wild outta control..but let him know it's OK, if the situation warrants, to get alittle physical..its worked well for him...and he is quite docile moving sheep with eye.

he is not afraid to escalate with the cattle...this particular picture, this steer had charged my other BC and ran her out..I was trying to open the gate to drop a bale of hay. So I sent Fletcher in..the ideal course of action, based on where the steer was and where he needed to go was to drive him there..the steer had just taken a swipe at him with a hind leg, which just pisses Fletcher off..so, Fletcher took it to the next level and the steer was moved to the area I needed him too.

He can also nosebite. Back when he was still a "foster"..we had him out while loading heifers, one jumped the gate and took off down the fenceline..he took off after her, headed her, bit her in the nose, got her turned and drove her back to the loading pens...this display is the reason he is still here.