Feeding young bull

[Alan]

Your herd gets no better than your bull. Meaning your cows can be great but bred to cr@p they still turn out cr@ppy.

How does not feeding a bull affect his genetics? Even if he's stunted, it doesn't change the DNA and what he'll throw. :???:

Do you want a stunted or undeveloped bull as your herd bull? I'll take it to the water buffalo comment, with water buffalo genetics mean everything, if you're a stunted water buffalo you're lion meat, genes go no further. Yes some folks have cattle right for their enviorment and develope and mature on grass, but for some or most you have to find the right nick for your environment, just as Dun stated. It does not happen over night. So my point is, do you want to give a future herd bull some supplement help or hope he turns out okay and developed enough to breed your herd after a year of expense and work to develope him?

 

[angus9259]

Your herd gets no better than your bull. Meaning your cows can be great but bred to cr@p they still turn out cr@ppy.

How does not feeding a bull affect his genetics? Even if he's stunted, it doesn't change the DNA and what he'll throw. :???:

Do you want a stunted or undeveloped bull as your herd bull? I'll take it to the water buffalo comment, with water buffalo genetics mean everything, if you're a stunted water buffalo you're lion meat, genes go no further. Yes some folks have cattle right for their enviorment and develope and mature on grass, but for some or most you have to find the right nick for your environment, just as Dun stated. It does not happen over night. So my point is, do you want to give a future herd bull some supplement help or hope he turns out okay and developed enough to breed your herd after a year of expense and work to develope him?

I'm not saying anyone should stunt a bull. However, if he was going throw A1 calves fully grown out properly, he'll have A1 calves if he wasn't. He may have fewer of them or not live as long or any host of other issues from being stunted, but that won't affect his genetics if he was stunted from lack of feed.

 

[greybeard]

Climate/weather conditions are a factor too, as they affect pasture forage quality. If you're growing a breeding bull in drought conditions for instance, you probably need to give them some nutritional help to get and keep them in condition during their development. I don't like to talk about other people's animals much but have a good example of that here with that beefmaster bull I posted a pic of in BB338's thread a few months ago.
He was born on poor pasture, out of a big bull and momma cow, but he was definitely on the small and light side when I got him at 10 months of age in early fall 2011 after that bad summer drought.(I didn't exactly buy him--just kinda fell into my lap so to speak)
I should have poured the feed and min supplement to him, but didn't as much as I should-and good hay was in short supply that winter. He's beginning to come on in size and muscle now, but should have already been a big ol bull. Finally starting to lose that hay belly too. Live and learn. And just becase I had a pasture full of green grass, it doesn't mean it's good quality either.

angus9259, I always figured even a partially stunted bull wouldn't perform as well and have trouble mounting. Genetics are genetics for sure, but doesn't do any good if he can't do his job to be able to pass them on.

 

[colleen]

Alan.....he isn't my bull. We sold him at 6 or 7 months!! We have a full grown bull!! But I'm just asking for opinions and I appreciate it!!

 

[jerry27150]

he'll do fine on good quality hay with cows

 

[3waycross]

he'll do fine on good quality hay with cows

Define FINE.

 

[Banjo]

I kept 3 bulls out of last years calves(2011) and turned them in with about 40 cows around the 1st of June 2012. They(bulls) were around 15 months old. All grass, no grain, the only problem I saw was they kept trying to knock each other off the cow so I sold 2 of them so that one could breed in peace. I finally sold him later in the year because he had a little too much beefmaster in him and his calves were showing up with horns, don't want the horns, but they were good calves. But that bull just continued to grow, he never looked like skin and bones.

 

[3waycross]

I kept 3 bulls out of last years calves(2011) and turned them in with about 40 cows around the 1st of June 2012. They(bulls) were around 15 months old. All grass, no grain, the only problem I saw was they kept trying to knock each other off the cow so I sold 2 of them so that one could breed in peace. I finally sold him later in the year because he had a little too much beefmaster in him and his calves were showing up with horns, don't want the horns, but they were good calves. But that bull just continued to grow, he never looked like skin and bones.

That's a hellova bull if you turned him out on June 1st of 2012 and his calves already have horns............wanna try that story again?

 

[Banjo]

I kept 3 bulls out of last years calves(2011) and turned them in with about 40 cows around the 1st of June 2012. They(bulls) were around 15 months old. All grass, no grain, the only problem I saw was they kept trying to knock each other off the cow so I sold 2 of them so that one could breed in peace. I finally sold him later in the year because he had a little too much beefmaster in him and his calves were showing up with horns, don't want the horns, but they were good calves. But that bull just continued to grow, he never looked like skin and bones.

That's a hellova bull if you turned him out on June 1st of 2012 and his calves already have horns............wanna try that story again?

Yea, you are absolutely right...his calves started hitting the ground in Feb. and Mar. of 2012 because I remember having to look at those horns all summer. I guess he would be a 2010 calf and was turned in around June 1st, 2011.
Time does get away sometimes. Thanks for catching that.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

But grass in Kentucky in the winter is a lot different than grass in other states.
Any animal has to be fed to meet their nutritional needs. Anything less and they won't mature as well or quickly - anything more & you're wasting your money.
In my neck of the woods, you had darn well better be supplimenting him if you expect him to breed at 15 months of age.

 

[3waycross]

But grass in Kentucky in the winter is a lot different than grass in other states.
Any animal has to be fed to meet their nutritional needs. Anything less and they won't mature as well or quickly - anything more & you're wasting your money.
In my neck of the woods, you had darn well better be supplimenting him if you expect him to breed at 15 months of age.

Jeanne don't you know you're wrong. He will do just fine on grass................why bother? Nobody wants to hear it. Your standards or mine for a 14 month old bull are different than the avg commercial guy. They begrudge every dollar they spend on a yearling and moreso on a 2 yr old when he really needs it. Then they look at the results and shrug their shoulders and say they did their best it must be the genetics!

 

[colleen]

We don't have any desire to raise a bull from a calf. We bought our bull when he was 2 1/2. But if we did decide to raise one, we would definitely supplement him. I was just asking if one could get by on grass, hay and some grain from time to time, and grow up to be a strong healthy bull. All opinions are appreciated!

 

[colleen]

Our bull the day we brought him home.

 

[colleen]

Just learning how to post pics. They are too big still. Ughh..

 

[colleen]

and 2 years later.....looking pretty dirty after throwing sand around!!! All over his head. And the old brahmas head too!

 

[Banjo]

But grass in Kentucky in the winter is a lot different than grass in other states.
Any animal has to be fed to meet their nutritional needs. Anything less and they won't mature as well or quickly - anything more & you're wasting your money.
In my neck of the woods, you had darn well better be supplimenting him if you expect him to breed at 15 months of age.

Ahh yea..The great state of Ky! I forget that everyone doesn't live and raise cattle here sometimes.
One thing I don't understand is though....why do we want a bull to mature too quickly? Do you want your replacement heifers to mature real quickly? I don't...I don't want them thinking about breeding before 15 mo. old if possible. There is this concept that everything needs to be pushed and pushed to be so big by a certain date.

 

[Banjo]

But grass in Kentucky in the winter is a lot different than grass in other states.
Any animal has to be fed to meet their nutritional needs. Anything less and they won't mature as well or quickly - anything more & you're wasting your money.
In my neck of the woods, you had darn well better be supplimenting him if you expect him to breed at 15 months of age.

Jeanne don't you know you're wrong. He will do just fine on grass................why bother? Nobody wants to hear it. Your standards or mine for a 14 month old bull are different than the avg commercial guy. They begrudge every dollar they spend on a yearling and moreso on a 2 yr old when he really needs it. Then they look at the results and shrug their shoulders and say they did their best it must be the genetics!

so what do think about the pharo cattle co. out there in your neck of the woods. Ever been to Kits ranch or one of his bull sales? I've never bought a bull from him, but he seems to have lot of satisfied customers with his no grain, grass developed bulls.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

TIME is money. If you have to keep a bull around til he is 2 years old for breeding - you're wasting time. I want my heifers cycling by a minimum of 12 months old. I prefer she's had a few cycles prior to breeding. Some of mine need to be bred at 13 months to be calving in the first couple weeks of my calving season (any heifers born in the last 2 weeks of my 60 day calving season) - same with any farm with a 60 day calving season.
And, I want my heifers to be grown out well prior to breeding so I can breed to an "average" easy calving bull, not a dink producer. My heifers are grown out well for breeding, then they never see grain again - unless they happen to be in the showstring - which is maybe 1 a year - and she does not get mega grain - like all of you think.
I figure I put about 1000# of corn thru each replacement heifer thru the winter til grass. Well worth the money spent. Besides, if I just sell ONE - her profit pays for the grain for the next several years!

 

[Banjo]

TIME is money. If you have to keep a bull around til he is 2 years old for breeding - you're wasting time. I want my heifers cycling by a minimum of 12 months old. I prefer she's had a few cycles prior to breeding. Some of mine need to be bred at 13 months to be calving in the first couple weeks of my calving season (any heifers born in the last 2 weeks of my 60 day calving season) - same with any farm with a 60 day calving season.
And, I want my heifers to be grown out well prior to breeding so I can breed to an "average" easy calving bull, not a dink producer. My heifers are grown out well for breeding, then they never see grain again - unless they happen to be in the showstring - which is maybe 1 a year - and she does not get mega grain - like all of you think.
I figure I put about 1000# of corn thru each replacement heifer thru the winter til grass. Well worth the money spent. Besides, if I just sell ONE - her profit pays for the grain for the next several years!

I see you are a seedstock producer. I am a commercial cow/calf operator.....so we live in different worlds. If I got out of my cattle what you do then I might pamper them every chance i could also....maybe. So therefore a 1000# of grain is only a drop in the bucket so to speak. More power to you.
On the subject of maturity.....I don't AI here, like you do. Here, the bull is with the herd a large part of the time. I don't want my 5 and 6 hundred lb heifers getting bred, and if I didn't have a bull with them, the neighbors bull would jump the fence and do the job. I don't want them coming in heat before 15 mo. which would put them in sync with the rest of the herd and give them plenty of time to develop.
With you, TIME may be money, but with me ...management is money.

 

[dun]

It basicly goes back to "one size" does NOT fit all. Since we sell few bulls, mostly heifers we have worked with our genetics to be succesfull on our forage. Mild winters like some we get the cows (and bulls both young and mature) are on stockpiled fescue. Ugly winters with no stockpiled grass they are on hay, if the hay isn;t as good as it needs be then we supplement. This year th heifers are on marginal hay (drought results) so they get a small amount of grain supplement, everyone else is out on pasture only. We borrowed a bull that we had sold to breed some fall calvers. He was 2 years old and had just come off of breeding 30-40 cows on a droughty pasture. He was here for a couple of months and gained 250 lbs turned out on our stockpiled pasture with the half dozen cows he had to breed.
Part is genetics but a big part is the pasture management. A young replacement bull prospect is out with the bred cows now, he'll be weighed in mid Feb when we pull him into the bull pen because the cows will be starting to calf shortly after that. In the bull pen he'll be on hay and a little grain just like the young heifers are now.