Feed genetics vs grass genetics

[FreeTexan]

One thing about it - if you raise your cattle on grass & hay - ALL buyers are happy with them. Buyer can keep them on grass/hay diet and will be happy - or a buyer can put them on an expensive grain diet and make them fat and sassy and be happy.
Maintain/supplement your adult cattle on a grain diet - very few buyers will be happy.

good point, I am considering buying some 400/500 lb heifers but have been hesitant because they have been fed cottonseed and corn. My concern is how they will do on just grass & hay. What are your thoughts? Are they young enough that it won't be significant transition OR has that feed trough made them less likely to thrive on grass/hay?

 

[Brute 23]

good point, I am considering buying some 400/500 lb heifers but have been hesitant because they have been fed cottonseed and corn. My concern is how they will do on just grass & hay. What are your thoughts? Are they young enough that it won't be significant transition OR has that feed trough made them less likely to thrive on grass/hay?

There are a ton of variable. There is a difference between supplementing a heifer for development and feeding a heifer out to be a pig for an easy sale or a show.

My question would be why are they off the cows and on feed that small? Why are they being fed corn and cottonseed?

 

[FreeTexan]

There are a ton of variable. There is a difference between supplementing a heifer for development and feeding a heifer out to be a pig for an easy sale or a show.

My question would be why are they off the cows and on feed that small? Why are they being fed corn and cottonseed

When I asked those questions, seller simply said that they are on grass but are being supplemented with cottonseed/corn just because he has large quantity of both. As for the weaning, he said that was about normal weaning weight for herefords. He raises registered herefords, horned and polled.

 

[Brute 23]

When I asked those questions, seller simply said that they are on grass but are being supplemented with cottonseed/corn just because he has large quantity of both. As for the weaning, he said that was about normal weaning weight for herefords. He raises registered herefords, horned and polled.

I think you were right to be hesitant unless you want to raise little Hereford or HXs.

My buddy sold a cow like that last year. She was like 7/8 Hereford. She was real chill. She probably was 900-1000# on a good day. She got the pass for a long time by him but her calves were always #100ish shy of the rest. At 2.50-3.00$ calves, that's a big hit.

 

[Travlr]

When I asked those questions, seller simply said that they are on grass but are being supplemented with cottonseed/corn just because he has large quantity of both. As for the weaning, he said that was about normal weaning weight for herefords. He raises registered herefords, horned and polled.

If animals are 400/500 pounds at weaning, which is normally 205 days/7months, they might have been average animals fifty years ago. Now those weights are low and what I would consider to be runts. If those weights are what his "registered" herd is producing you might want to look for animals that wean at 600 pounds or better. At least if you are looking for replacements heifers. Smaller at weaning generally means lower gains per day if you are feeding them out.

 

[clarkmorefarm]

Question for you all about feed vs grass and where the line is drawn.

It was very dry here when I brought my cattle home, I decided to supplement a little with 12% sweet feed so the cows and heifers would get to know me and because the pasture was in such poor shape. We have since had the rain event prior to Helene, and some of Helenes rains and our pastures look like it is springtime again. The cows always had access to hay, but figured a little sweet feed wouldn't hurt them. Plus, I had a 500 mile haul for when I bought them, and figured they lost some weight on the ride over.

I plan on spreading out any feed I give them, but only every fed a 20 qt (15 lbs maybe?) bucket between 5 head a day for a while and have giving it less frequently now.

Where is the line where the cattle become dependent on feed vs sustainable on grass? Or when is it just a treat to give to cows to keep them tame? Is it all about the % of body weight you feed to them? Is it all genetics?

My cattle came from grass only operations in Missouri.

Just curious on everyone's thoughts on this.

 

[Travlr]

Question for you all about feed vs grass and where the line is drawn.

It was very dry here when I brought my cattle home, I decided to supplement a little with 12% sweet feed so the cows and heifers would get to know me and because the pasture was in such poor shape. We have since had the rain event prior to Helene, and some of Helenes rains and our pastures look like it is springtime again. The cows always had access to hay, but figured a little sweet feed wouldn't hurt them. Plus, I had a 500 mile haul for when I bought them, and figured they lost some weight on the ride over.

I plan on spreading out any feed I give them, but only every fed a 20 qt (15 lbs maybe?) bucket between 5 head a day for a while and have giving it less frequently now.

Where is the line where the cattle become dependent on feed vs sustainable on grass? Or when is it just a treat to give to cows to keep them tame? Is it all about the % of body weight you feed to them? Is it all genetics?

My cattle came from grass only operations in Missouri.

Just curious on everyone's thoughts on this.

For me, and I'm sure for anyone actually making money in the cattle business, the line is where you are spending more to feed your animals than what you are getting in return. Is a supplement justified for health? Are increases in productivity... either breeding leading to live births... or weight gains, paying for the extra feed/efforts?

I like my cattle friendly enough that they will come to a coffee can of grain or my calling them, but not so friendly that I am overfeeding them or that they won't have a comfort zone that I can use to get them to move as I want them to move.

I don't want animals that can't thrive and produce a profit on grass. Supplements are always an extra cost.

This may change in the future as real estate becomes expensive and the economies of scale make feed cheaper than real estate. If that happens, IMO, it will be a sad day.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

I've got cows that get grain 2x or 3x a year at most and they don't forget what it is and will come running for a shaking bucket.

 

[Rancher]

If animals are 400/500 pounds at weaning, which is normally 205 days/7months, they might have been average animals fifty years ago. Now those weights are low and what I would consider to be runts. If those weights are what his "registered" herd is producing you might want to look for animals that wean at 600 pounds or better. At least if you are looking for replacements heifers. Smaller at weaning generally means lower gains per day if you are feeding them out.

Absolutely spot on.

 

[farmerjan]

Average cow size here is 11-1400 lbs on most farms. Average weaning weight is in the 500 lb range. Big cows here... over 1500 lbs..... do not hold up near as well on the steeper hill/mountain pastures. We get the best returns from our 11-1200 lb cows weaning off a 500 lb calf at 6-7 months. Birth weights are in the 75 lb average I would say. Calves sell best at those weights too. Cull cows that weigh over 1100 bring best prices and do not have to be fat... just good flesh.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

As a 'rule of thumb', calves from smaller sized cows will finish much better and quicker on grass than calves from larger cows. The nutrient levels required by calves that are genetically pre-dispositioned to mature at a large size cannot be met by grass alone. This is a guide and not an absolute, but if you don't know the specific traits of the animals at hand, information like this could be all you have to speculate with. Someone else may have some additional insight.

 

[Ebenezer]

As a 'rule of thumb', calves from smaller sized cows will finish much better and quicker on grass than calves from larger cows. The nutrient levels required by calves that are genetically pre-dispositioned to mature at a large size cannot be met by grass alone. This is a guide and not an absolute, but if you don't know the specific traits of the animals at hand, information like this could be all you have to speculate with. Someone else may have some additional insight.

Never forget market value and marketability. That is the unspoken of the small cow craze. Efficiency is great if it is profitable. Being in the middle ground of cow size and weaning weights is a great place to be.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Never forget market value and marketability. That is the unspoken of the small cow craze. Efficiency is great if it is profitable. Being in the middle ground of cow size and weaning weights is a great place to be.

It's a balancing act and very much individual preference. In reference to what @FreeTexan asked about size of the animals and grass fed vs grain fed was where I was thinking. It's very possible to get too focused on grass vs grain and lose sight of the bottom line. You ALWAYS have to watch the bottom line, regardless of your objectives outside of it.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I raise my cattle to survive on grass and hay. I am a purebred breeder - sell breeding stock. I am a firm believer in GRAIN fed fatten steers. I want them weaned and in the freezer by age 12-14 months of age.
I GRAIN my replacement heifers from weaning in September to grass and breeding in April. They only get 5#/hd/day of whole shell corn. I expect all my heifers to calve at 24 months of age. We have pretty brutal winters and they are in a winter sacrifice area without protection. The corn helps keep them warm. When they get bred in March & April, they are turned out with the cow herd, never to be "grained" again (unless they are lucky and get in the show string). Even our show string are not HEAVY fed grain. Only finishing steers get fed heavy.

I do NOT believe in buying sweet bag feed. What a waste of money! The reason it is "sweet" feed is because it is made up of a lot of dust and the molasses helps keep it from blowing away. Once you feed sweet feed, it is hard to convert them to plain grain feed - which is cheaper.

 

[redcowsrule33]

I raise my cattle to survive on grass and hay. I am a purebred breeder - sell breeding stock. I am a firm believer in GRAIN fed fatten steers. I want them weaned and in the freezer by age 12-14 months of age.
I GRAIN my replacement heifers from weaning in September to grass and breeding in April. They only get 5#/hd/day of whole shell corn. I expect all my heifers to calve at 24 months of age. We have pretty brutal winters and they are in a winter sacrifice area without protection. The corn helps keep them warm. When they get bred in March & April, they are turned out with the cow herd, never to be "grained" again (unless they are lucky and get in the show string). Even our show string are not HEAVY fed grain. Only finishing steers get fed heavy.

I do NOT believe in buying sweet bag feed. What a waste of money! The reason it is "sweet" feed is because it is made up of a lot of dust and the molasses helps keep it from blowing away. Once you feed sweet feed, it is hard to convert them to plain grain feed - which is cheaper.

I know you’re very selective with which AI bulls you use but they come from many different programs all over the country. Do you get heifers that “ flunk out” of your feeding program and what it demands?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I know you're very selective with which AI bulls you use but they come from many different programs all over the country. Do you get heifers that " flunk out" of your feeding program and what it demands?

No.
Pretty simple. I "DO' breed to bulls raised in all different parts of US. I think the maternal development/imprinting (there is a term for this??) has more to do with their eating habits than the semen from a bull. I realize the bull is half the "genetics", but the dam has more influence. The calves are raised out on grass - no exposure to grain until they are weaned - then turned out on grass when herd is turned out in spring. Herd is kept on sacrifice areas for feeding hay.

 

[Warren Allison]

Well, to be CAB they just have to have a predominantly black hide!

And about 9 other qualifications.

 

[Warren Allison]

"Perception, I'm starting to see, is 90% of marketing."
Or producing what the buyers are willing to pay top dollar for is 90% of marketing".

I'd say it is 100% of marketing, for any product.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Question for you all about feed vs grass and where the line is drawn.

It was very dry here when I brought my cattle home, I decided to supplement a little with 12% sweet feed so the cows and heifers would get to know me and because the pasture was in such poor shape. We have since had the rain event prior to Helene, and some of Helenes rains and our pastures look like it is springtime again. The cows always had access to hay, but figured a little sweet feed wouldn't hurt them. Plus, I had a 500 mile haul for when I bought them, and figured they lost some weight on the ride over.

I plan on spreading out any feed I give them, but only every fed a 20 qt (15 lbs maybe?) bucket between 5 head a day for a while and have giving it less frequently now.

Where is the line where the cattle become dependent on feed vs sustainable on grass? Or when is it just a treat to give to cows to keep them tame? Is it all about the % of body weight you feed to them? Is it all genetics?

My cattle came from grass only operations in Missouri.

Just curious on everyone's thoughts on this.

All cattle will gladly eat grain. Just because you feed them a week or two does not mean they will become dependent on grain. Will they run to you when they see you or see a bucket - YES. As I said earlier, my heifers are raised on their dam strictly on grass. Then they are weaned and fed 5# whole shell corn from Sept thru March/April. They never see grain as part of their "diet" again. They are bred and turned out on grass, fed hay in winter and calve in Jan/Feb on hay.

 

[greybeard]

All cattle will gladly eat grain. Just because you feed them a week or two does not mean they will become dependent on grain. Will they run to you when they see you or see a bucket - YES. As I said earlier, my heifers are raised on their dam strictly on grass. Then they are weaned and fed 5# whole shell corn from Sept thru March/April. They never see grain as part of their "diet" again. They are bred and turned out on grass, fed hay in winter and calve in Jan/Feb on hay.

They have very long memories...

(never walk across a pasture full of cows with a fishing rod and a minnow bucket... )