Feed genetics vs grass genetics

[Hpacres440p]

We AI primarily and it has been very interesting, to say the least, watching the development differences between AI sires. Cow conditions are the same, but we use different sires with each cow (more interesting that way). I will say that there are big differences among different bloodlines within a breed, depending on their management/selection criteria. Found one I'll never use again, and another that I'll happily go back to. Just an interesting observation. No EPDs available

 

[ClinchValley86]

What's been your observations?

You're grass based, correct?

 

[M.Magis]

By using a variety of different bulls each year, on a random group of cows, how many conclusions can be drawn towards the bulls themselves?

 

[Hpacres440p]

What's been your observations?

You're grass based,

By using a variety of different bulls each year, on a random group of cows, how many conclusions can be drawn towards the bulls themselves?

well, my test kitchen consists of an entire 2 cows that have been raised here for the past 7 years. Not as random as you project. One cow would not stick with one specific bull, the other did. That resulting calf has grown great on grass, as have most other calves. The backup semen for the one who wouldn't stick has definitely not grown as well as his counterpart. Usually we try to use the same bull with both, but do change year to year based on availability. One cow is a terminal producer only, the other finally gave me a heifer for replacement (sexed semen).

 

[M.Magis]

My point was that the cow is half the equation. Using cows with no real "numbers", and with such a small sample size, I don't think you can safely eliminate or favor any particular bulls. There are just too many variables and unknowns.

 

[Ebenezer]

What I have observed is that FS is not a good judge of grass adaptation or usefulness. That is just an easy way for some to sell their products that they have or prefer.

 

[Hpacres440p]

My point was that the cow is half the equation. Using cows with no real "numbers", and with such a small sample size, I don't think you can safely eliminate or favor any particular bulls. There are just too many variables and unknowns.

Maybe I'll say "for my situation" they didn't work…

 

[Mark Reynolds]

We AI primarily and it has been very interesting, to say the least, watching the development differences between AI sires. Cow conditions are the same, but we use different sires with each cow (more interesting that way). I will say that there are big differences among different bloodlines within a breed, depending on their management/selection criteria. Found one I'll never use again, and another that I'll happily go back to. Just an interesting observation. No EPDs available

I've told others that there is more genetic variation within a breed than there is between different breeds. The statement sounds absurd when you first hear it. Then someone says/points out something like this which proves the statement.

 

[Brute 23]

I've told others that there is more genetic variation within a breed than there is between different breeds. The statement sounds absurd when you first hear it. Then someone says/points out something like this which proves the statement.

People who are not breed blind can see this. It's why people say buy what is in your area and being raised like you will raise them. I can have an F1 Braford cow all the way to 1/4 or 1/8 Black baldie and if I put their calves in a pile most people can't tell the difference. Even the crossbred cows in between don't have that much difference. If you are culling for performance or what ever you cull for you will end up with cattle that are simular because a lot of the attributes that give you what you want will line up no matter what the breed is.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

People who are not breed blind can see this. It's why people say buy what is in your area and being raised like you will raise them. I can have an F1 Braford cow all the way to 1/4 or 1/8 Black baldie and if I put their calves in a pile most people can't tell the difference. Even the crossbred cows in between don't have that much difference. If you are culling for performance or what ever you cull for you will end up with cattle that are simular because a lot of the attributes that give you what you want will line up no matter what the breed is.

I like that term: "breed blind"

 

[ClinchValley86]

What I have observed is that FS is not a good judge of grass adaptation or usefulness. That is just an easy way for some to sell their products that they have or prefer.

100% spot on. It's now they're built in the midsection IMO that allows it.

 

[gcreekrch]

The main difference between grass based genetics and otherwise is ownership of said livestock.

 

[sstterry]

I've told others that there is more genetic variation within a breed than there is between different breeds. The statement sounds absurd when you first hear it. Then someone says/points out something like this which proves the statement.

Except for Angus of course. We are all told that Angus Beef is the only good beef.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Except for Angus of course. We are all told that Angus Beef is the only good beef.

Aren't all black cows angus then? How many have you heard this? I have, more than once. Not on here thank goodness.

 

[sstterry]

Aren't all black cows angus then? How many have you heard this? I have, more than once. Not on here thank goodness.

Well, to be CAB they just have to have a predominantly black hide!

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Well, to be CAB they just have to have a predominantly black hide!

Great! Now you ruined that for me! @sstterry, I know what you are saying. That is merely a marketing ploy, and both you and I know that. It does two things, and if those are the objectives being sought, it works. 1) It makes the animal sell for more. 2) the consumer is happy because they are getting something that is 'premium' because it is certified and labeled, not because it is truly any better.

I wonder if I could go find a bunch of goats and a can of black paint now?

Perception, I'm starting to see, is 90% of marketing.

 

[Ebenezer]

"Perception, I'm starting to see, is 90% of marketing."
Or producing what the buyers are willing to pay top dollar for is 90% of marketing".

 

[farmerjan]

There are certain bulls, that work in certain herds better than other bulls. I have seen some of it with our cattle, with different bulls we have bought over the years. Since we do little AI, we have a narrower scope of choice and have had some bulls from some breeders work good for us, and some just not worth a dam*..... Bought a bull, and 6 cow/calf pairs from a sale closeby, and only 1 cow has produced a decent calf 3 years running... and the calves out of the bull are so-so... come to find out they do A LOT of supplemental ... ie... GRAIN....feeding to their cattle. And we do not feed much grain except as a "treat", and to get them to come in the pens etc reward type feeding.......
Closeby so same conditions in grasses/pasture and such. Heard from a friend that they never had much luck with that breeders cattle because of their needing supplemental feed... well, it has been the same for us. So, there are differences in what the cattle are developed on, and how they are kept, as to what they can do and what they need in your own operation. That whole group will be gone in the next culling.... have sold off a couple already and have not kept any of the calves since they just don't have what it takes for us to keep any heifers as replacements either.
Understand too, that we have less than perfect cattle and some have some dairy percentage and they produce better on just grass than some of these purebred cattle from this breeder with being developed on feeding supplemental grain .

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

One thing about it - if you raise your cattle on grass & hay - ALL buyers are happy with them. Buyer can keep them on grass/hay diet and will be happy - or a buyer can put them on an expensive grain diet and make them fat and sassy and be happy.
Maintain/supplement your adult cattle on a grain diet - very few buyers will be happy.

 

[wobbie1775]

Well, to be CAB they just have to have a predominantly black hide!

Along with many other physical qualifications.... Hump size, age, ribeye area, etc to name a few. I am not arguing one way or the other if the black hide mania is warranted or not. Simply pointing out that a Brangus with too tall a hump or a black Dairy cross with too large ribeye will both not make the program. And those could be traits that a person might see on the live animal, when looking beyond hide color alone.