Feed genetics vs grass genetics

[Mark Reynolds]

Along with many other physical qualifications.... Hump size, age, ribeye area, etc to name a few. I am not arguing one way or the other if the black hide mania is warranted or not. Simply pointing out that a Brangus with too tall a hump or a black Dairy cross with too large ribeye will both not make the program. And those could be traits that a person might see on the live animal, when looking beyond hide color alone.

I think the point might have been that they don't have to be angus to be certified as angus.

 

[Allenw]

I wonder if I could go find a bunch of goats and a can of black paint now?

Perception, I'm starting to see, is 90% of marketing.

Too late there already a Black Spanish goat registry.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Too late there already a Black Spanish goat registry.

Darn it! is anyone getting them to become CAB?

 

[kenny thomas]

One thing about it - if you raise your cattle on grass & hay - ALL buyers are happy with them. Buyer can keep them on grass/hay diet and will be happy - or a buyer can put them on an expensive grain diet and make them fat and sassy and be happy.
Maintain/supplement your adult cattle on a grain diet - very few buyers will be happy.

Exactly, Simme has raised 2 bulls for me and 2 for clinchvalley86 in 2 years. I told him from the beginning that if he put them on "test" that i wasn't interested. They just keep growing when they get here with no supplement. He raises good bulls of my type.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Along with many other physical qualifications.... Hump size, age, ribeye area, etc to name a few. I am not arguing one way or the other if the black hide mania is warranted or not. Simply pointing out that a Brangus with too tall a hump or a black Dairy cross with too large ribeye will both not make the program. And those could be traits that a person might see on the live animal, when looking beyond hide color alone.

LIVE requirements are the mostly black and there is a hump size. CARCASS requirements do include ribeye - and yield & grade and weight.
I really don't think a Holstein x black beef breed will have to worry about REA being too LARGE - LOL

Just read an article about dairy x beef feedlot calves. The article made it sound like it was amazing that they GRADE better and are LEANER than straight beef calves. Well, duh!!!

Back to the CAB - the CAB is a PROGRAM, developed, owned and paid by the AAA. This has been probably the most successful beef program ever started - for AAA AND for all beef cattle. We ALL benefit from the black hide premium. People need to quit bitzhing. Quit being jealous and just reap the benefits when possible.

 

[Travlr]

My point was that the cow is half the equation. Using cows with no real "numbers", and with such a small sample size, I don't think you can safely eliminate or favor any particular bulls. There are just too many variables and unknowns.

You make a good point. Any judgement might be more beneficial if any one bull was used on several cows, or succeeding years, or full sisters/closely related cows. And depending on which strategy that gets used you have more or less useful information.

But I have to say that if I'd used a bull, even on one single cow that returned a poor calf, It would be difficult to use him again on any other cows.

 

[Travlr]

Back to the CAB - the CAB is a PROGRAM, developed, owned and paid by the AAA. This has been probably the most successful beef program ever started - for AAA

That's absolutely true.

AND for all beef cattle. We ALL benefit from the black hide premium. People need to quit bitzhing.

People might benefit from understanding the short term benefits but weighing them against the long term consequences. The CAB program is not perfect and over time it's proving to be damaging in unanticipated ways. More ways than one.

 

[simme]

I think the point might have been that they don't have to be angus to be certified as angus.

I don't believe that CAB cattle are "certified as angus". They are certified to meet the stated requirements of the CAB program.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

I don't believe that CAB cattle are "certified as angus". They are certified to meet the stated requirements of the CAB program.

CAB="Certified Angus Beef" but does not certify the beef as angus?

Someone tell me I'm missing something. Otherwise, I need some aspirin. My head is starting to hurt!

@Jeanne - Simme Valley, you're right, it's a program. The wording (it's a marketing thing) is.......'creative'.

 

[simme]

I've told others that there is more genetic variation within a breed than there is between different breeds. The statement sounds absurd when you first hear it. Then someone says/points out something like this which proves the statement.

If there is more genetic variation within a breed than there is between breeds, then it would seem to be easier to achieve heterosis by breeding within a breed than to get heterosis by crossing breeds. Can someone explain that to me?

 

[simme]

CAB="Certified Angus Beef" but does not certify the beef as angus?

Someone tell me I'm missing something. Otherwise, I need some aspirin. My head is starting to hurt!

The "missing" part is the misleading name. But the list of qualifiers for CAB is pretty specific and does not include a genetic qualifier. A genetic test would be pretty difficult to administer and certify in the time frame anyway. I guess the interpretation is that the product is Certified to meet the requirements of the Beef program that was trademarked by the Angus association. Perception is a part of the success of the program.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

The "missing" part is the misleading name. But the list of qualifiers for CAB is pretty specific and does not include a genetic qualifier. A genetic test would be pretty difficult to administer and certify in the time frame anyway. I guess the interpretation is that the product is Certified to meet the requirements of the Beef program that was trademarked by the Angus association. Perception is a part of the success of the program.

Yep, the last line of my prior post identified it as a marketing ploy. I'm not saying it's good or bad. It is deceptive and is/was meant to be. It is/was also a stroke of genus to come up with it.

 

[sstterry]

Yep, the last line of my prior post identified it as a marketing ploy. I'm not saying it's good or bad. It is deceptive and is/was meant to be. It is/was also a stroke of genus to come up with it.

It started out as just a marketing ploy by the Angus Association in the early 80's (I knew a guy that was on the Board at the time and he told me so) because no one wanted the short and squat Angus. Later they got some idiot Congressman to pass a bill that no one understood to make it a thing. It is all bullsh*t. The other requirements would be covered anyway under the USDA grading (except for the neck hump and animal color). No one seems to be able to define "Angus Influenced".

With that said, it has been brilliant marketing. But bs is still bs.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

It started out as just a marketing ploy by the Angus Association in the early 80's (I knew a guy that was on the Board at the time and he told me so) because no one wanted the short and squat Angus. Later they got some idiot Congressman to pass a bill that no one understood to make it a thing. It is all bullsh*t. The other requirements would be covered anyway under the USDA grading (except for the neck hump and animal color). No one seems to be able to define "Angus Influenced".

With that said, it has been brilliant marketing. But bs is still bs.

Oh No! A congressman and a bill out of this! I missed that somewhere along the line. Marketing, yes, ok. Making it a bill/law? Please, let's leave this one buried! I work for this outfit and the USDA at that! I'm already taking aspirin on this matter from a previous post on this topic. I'll need something substantially stronger if THIS becomes part of my job......or I take early retirement.

 

[Travlr]

Oh No! A congressman and a bill out of this! I missed that somewhere along the line. Marketing, yes, ok. Making it a bill/law? Please, let's leave this one buried! I work for this outfit and the USDA at that! I'm already taking aspirin on this matter from a previous post on this topic. I'll need something substantially stronger if THIS becomes part of my job......or I take early retirement.

So back to the theme of the thread...

I went out this morning and harvested pasture grass seed by hand. I've got a couple of bare spots that I'll overseed on top of the first snow and then again on any late snow in the spring.

It was an interesting experience. I can see how harvesting by hand contributed to domestication and improvement of grain type grasses.

 

[ClinchValley86]

I do that with johnson grass seed. Filled up many a gallon bag a few Summers ago. Don't know that any of it came up.

Probably pulled it at the wrong time.

 

[Brute 23]

I do that with johnson grass seed. Filled up many a gallon bag a few Summers ago. Don't know that any of it came up.

Probably pulled it at the wrong time.

That's expensive stuff. I'm on a waiting list right now.

 

[bird dog]

I went the cheaper and easier route and bought Johnson Grass hay to roll out.

I have scattered patches of Indian grass on my place. Its a wonderful grass but some years where there is not much spring moisture, it fails to come up. Other years when its wet like this one, there are small patches of it in a lot of places and lots of it along the road side. Like clinch valley, the wife and i have pulled off many a seed heads. I am also not sure if it comes up but the Indian grass has gotten better every year that I have owned the place so I like to think it does. Of course the cows, deer and birds may be more responsible.

 

[ClinchValley86]

I went the cheaper and easier route and bought Johnson Grass hay to roll out.

I have scattered patches of Indian grass on my place. Its a wonderful grass but some years where there is not much spring moisture, it fails to come up. Other years when its wet like this one, there are small patches of it in a lot of places and lots of it along the road side. Like clinch valley, the wife and i have pulled off many a seed heads. I am also not sure if it comes up but the Indian grass has gotten better every year that I have owned the place so I like to think it does. Of course the cows, deer and birds may be more responsible.

Wise route! My hay guy saves his JG stuff for me. Seems to be a win for him as much as it is for me. Do officially have it coming up on almost every acre. Just a matter of letting it thicken up.

A solid field of johnsongrass with an understory of red clover would tickle me to death! Think the cows would be happy with it too.

 

[ClinchValley86]

That's expensive stuff. I'm on a waiting list right now.

Really?