EPD single trait rejection?

[talltimber]

I have a neighbor that him and his family has been in the business many years. He says the same thing you did as far as heifer selection. If he has too many to keep he culls the top and bottom. He said he's been burned too many times by the pretty/big ones.
But to read some articles out there, you would think the bigger heifers would be the one's to keep for higher fertility due to them most likely being born at the front end of the calving period? Conflicting info and opinion abounds. If this is the case, higher fertility, I wonder if it's not necessarily fertility as it is the added time in reaching puberty at breeding time?

 

[elkwc]

Much more possible variance than I anticipated, but also a possibility of being dead nuts on. Point taken.

What's your current practice in choosing, assuming the prettiest is not the correct answer? (not being a wise-azz)

I'm not sure MY selection criteria will help you much, since I am a registered breeder who's trying to develop a linebred maternal line:

Cows: I select for calf structure and growth, with milking ability being the largest contributor to calf growth. That, balanced against their ability to stay in good shape and rebreed. I have found EPDs to be totally useless in cow selection. Too much variation can occur in the milk EPD and all the other EPDs are too low accuracy as well. I seen too many folks lament that the best cow in their herd has some of the WORST EPDs. If you look at the accuracy of the EPDs on cows, even those that have had several calves, you can understand why there is such a significant variation. Ratios are better indicators of cow performance...and what you can see with your eye. I don't get too high on the best performing heifers at weaning age and I will occasionally cull one for being too big. Outliers, either way, are potential trouble. I have found the best cows often come from the heifers that were back in the pack and maybe even a little underperforming as calves. So I keep a lot of heifers and cull liberally after their first and second calves.

Bulls: Phenotype and pedigree first, then if they pass that test, I look at their in herd ratios and actual weights and scans when possible. By pedigree, I particularly mean knowing as much as possible about a bull's dam and seeking the opinion of their owner and/or breeder. Learning about a bull's dam is very important if you are planning on keeping his daughters in your herd. I have been very lucky to buy some older proven bulls in the past and I had already seen their daughters in production and I had a record of what their daughters would do, as far as ratios.

In my latest UNPROVEN bull purchase, this month, I had seen his sire, his maternal grandsire, and all of his maternal great grandparents in person. He was an ET calf, so he has no BW, WW, or YW ratios. I bought him from a video and seeing his actual weights and scan measurements. He was delivered last week and I am happy with him, but I won't get too excited until I see a dozen of his calves on the ground. I am planning on returning to a timed AI program this fall, so he will see cleanup duty and only about 30-40% of the calves will be his.

Very well stated. And very similar how I pick a bull or a cow.

 

[GRTiger85]

spot on for cow selection. My best milking cow has one of the lowest milk epds in the herd at +13, but she out milks all my cows in the 20's. Stays in great shape too. I dont put a whole lot of stock into epd's when selecting cows, look at a lot of other things before those.

 

[WalnutCrest]

I have a neighbor that him and his family has been in the business many years. He says the same thing you did as far as heifer selection. If he has too many to keep he culls the top and bottom. He said he's been burned too many times by the pretty/big ones.
But to read some articles out there, you would think the bigger heifers would be the one's to keep for higher fertility due to them most likely being born at the front end of the calving period? Conflicting info and opinion abounds. If this is the case, higher fertility, I wonder if it's not necessarily fertility as it is the added time in reaching puberty at breeding time?

Here's what we do (not that anyone asked):

Use hip height, the University of Missouri frame score chart (and related formulas) to figure out how much your heifers should weigh given their age (in days) based on their hip height. Compare their current weight to their projected mature weight. Keep the ones with the highest ratios. This allows you to select the ones that are maturing the fastest (which may not be the ones that are biggest).

 

[SPH]

While we do use EPDs as part of our selection and management process I'm going to throw a sports analogy out here with the use of EPDs... How many times do you hear people hype up a sports team in the preseason saying "they look great on paper" meaning the stats they put up the previous season combined with the hype or potential people think they have means they should have a great season then once the season gets going and the team doesn't live up on the hype you see that's all they had was a good team "on paper." Can say the same in the registered cattle business too, you can mix and match EPDs all you want in matings and get a result that looks good on paper but it doesn't ammount to much if that animal does not perform.

When looking at registered cattle on paper you have to be able to read a pedigree and know something about them to get a read on what kind of genetics are behind that animal. When looking at a bull you want to see some proven sires and some females that have been productive and have some longevity to have any faith in those EPDs. You can make a mistake on a female and only have to deal with culling her and her calves for it but if you miss on a bull you have a lot more mistakes sired by him to deal with along with having to look for a replacement sire too.

 

[SPH]

I have a neighbor that him and his family has been in the business many years. He says the same thing you did as far as heifer selection. If he has too many to keep he culls the top and bottom. He said he's been burned too many times by the pretty/big ones.
But to read some articles out there, you would think the bigger heifers would be the one's to keep for higher fertility due to them most likely being born at the front end of the calving period? Conflicting info and opinion abounds. If this is the case, higher fertility, I wonder if it's not necessarily fertility as it is the added time in reaching puberty at breeding time?

Here's what we do (not that anyone asked):

Use hip height, the University of Missouri frame score chart (and related formulas) to figure out how much your heifers should weigh given their age (in days) based on their hip height. Compare their current weight to their projected mature weight. Keep the ones with the highest ratios. This allows you to select the ones that are maturing the fastest (which may not be the ones that are biggest).

Please explain how hip height relates to weights. Weaning and yearling ratios are based off of weights not hip heights. You could have a poor performing animal with a taller hip height that is light muscled and lacking in depth and length weigh less than a smaller framed animal that packs some good muscle and is well built. Larger frame doesn't necesarily translate to better performance and the race to the larger frame cattle probably set some people back in the late 90's and early 2000's because a lot of those cows turned out to be some real hard doers. Some of the smaller framed animals sometimes are built better and a lot more efficient than larger framed cattle.

 

[WalnutCrest]

I have a neighbor that him and his family has been in the business many years. He says the same thing you did as far as heifer selection. If he has too many to keep he culls the top and bottom. He said he's been burned too many times by the pretty/big ones.
But to read some articles out there, you would think the bigger heifers would be the one's to keep for higher fertility due to them most likely being born at the front end of the calving period? Conflicting info and opinion abounds. If this is the case, higher fertility, I wonder if it's not necessarily fertility as it is the added time in reaching puberty at breeding time?

Here's what we do (not that anyone asked):

Use hip height, the University of Missouri frame score chart (and related formulas) to figure out how much your heifers should weigh given their age (in days) based on their hip height. Compare their current weight to their projected mature weight. Keep the ones with the highest ratios. This allows you to select the ones that are maturing the fastest (which may not be the ones that are biggest).

Please explain how hip height relates to weights. Weaning and yearling ratios are based off of weights not hip heights. You could have a poor performing animal with a taller hip height that is light muscled and lacking in depth and length weigh less than a smaller framed animal that packs some good muscle and is well built. Larger frame doesn't necesarily translate to better performance and the race to the larger frame cattle probably set some people back in the late 90's and early 2000's because a lot of those cows turned out to be some real hard doers. Some of the smaller framed animals sometimes are built better and a lot more efficient than larger framed cattle.

I strongly agree with the sentiment in the sentences I bolded.

Details on what we do -- simple example on three heifers, each of which are exactly 7mo old:

Heifer 1 = 41.2" (FS4.0) and 530lbs
Heifer 2 = 43.3" (FS5.0) and 585lbs
Heifer 3 = 45.3" (FS6.0) and 575lbs

Mature cows at FS4, FS5 and FS6 are supposed to be (on average) 1100lbs, 1175lbs and 1250lbs.

Step 1:
H1 = 530 / 1100 = 48.2%
H2 = 585 / 1175 = 49.8%
H3 = 575 / 1250 = 46.0%

Step 2:
Rank them by percentages from highest to lowest

Step 3:
Start making culling decisions from the bottom up until you have the number of heifers you want to retain to try to breed.

This process allows me to determine which animals are achieving their final mature size most quickly, as these are the ones who are achieving their sexual maturity most quickly, and therefore will be ready to breed most easily in the time frame I want to try to breed them.

 

[SPH]

Good explanation Walnut, thanks for the response. Looking back I don't think I exactly read your post correctly the first time I saw it. I think I thought you were saying bigger frame is better and means more pounds but your explanation makes much better sense to me now.