Endophyte Free or More Clovers and Lespeza?

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creaturelink

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We've been experiencing a decline in our cattle's health and production over the past 5 years and we are searching for a remedy to our situation. Below I will explain.

History & Problems

We are located in Virginia. Currently we are on a Rotational Grazing Management Plan. Our pastures are mixed bluegrass, clover, orchard grass, and the majority now being KY31. Here is what we have - 7 pastures varying between 2-30 acres per pasture. Rough total of 90 acres. We rotate 47 cows and roughly 35 calves on those cows between the different pastures. When we move the cows they will devour all grasses except fescue within a matter of days. There's ample fescue but the cattle will not eat it. When comparing these pastures to others in the county there is more grass here.

KY31 has taken over the more fertile fields since beginning our rotational grazing at a rate of near 90%.

We've begun soil PH and Fertilization programs and planted clover. That of which succeeded in primarily aiding the growth of the KY31 with no help toward the other grasses.

Since the beginning of our Rotational Grazing (roughly 5 years), our weaning rates have dropped drastically every year.
Cows are losing tails, many cows are sore footed, initial milk production in some cows after calving is very slow, taking 3-4 days to come in.
All cows stand in the creek most of the time. Some even laying flat in the creek.
Over 1/2 the cows are not shedding hair until late fall, if at all.
Spring calving cows if not bred before March, will not breed again until fall.
Calves are more prevalent to scours, pink eye, and foot rot. Newborns are more prone to navel infections as well.
Our cattle on rented pastures, that are not tended nearly as often, are outperforming the cattle on our home pastures.
We've fed mineral with Tasco, we've tried mineral with MTB?, we've tried hay with pasture grazing in summer months, we've tried drilling clover and broadcasting clover in early spring, all of which have yeilded no results.

Due to many failed attempts to resolve our cattle/forage problems we are desperate to make the right decision to proceed with. We believe an entire grass change to Max Q or seeding heavily with a combination of Lespeza, white clover and red clover is in order.

Has anyone else experienced these types of problems with any solutions?
 
I would contact your local vet and have him come out and check your cows. If he can't find anything wrong, I'd do a soil test. Are there any areas that may have been used for a dump in the past. I'l also check your water supply.

bobg
 
Man, a soil test was the first thing we did. We've contacted VA Tech and had specialists down here. This farms been in the family for over 250 years, it's clean no dumping. The vet is at a loss. It all comes down to fescue toxicosis, which sadly is quite common. Most farmers just don't care. But, we do. We just can't decide what is better in the long run the endophyte free "max q" or trying to lessen the KY31 with over seeding with clover and lespeza.
 
As long as you have the other stuff the cows are going to eat it first. Over seeding with legumes won;t do much for the problem since they're going to eat that along with the good stuff first. You could make the paddock smaller so that they have to graze the fescue, that along with the legumes should help. Or keep it clipped to around 6 inches or so and have them graze it to 2-3 inches. When it comes to toxicity and how it's handled by the individual I think it has to do with the individual genetics. There are ineral supplements that supposedly help to minimize the toxic affect.
Replanting with one of the endophyte friendly fescues is a long expensive process and unless you go through some gyrations when moving the cattle from the toxic stuff to the non-toxic stuff, you'll end up with the toxic stuff over taking the friendly stuff and you're back where you started, just poorer.

dun
 
creaturelink":2t07d3pz said:
The super stinky problem is they refuse to eat the fescue. They will starve first.

If they are not eating the fescue how do you explain this?

"Since the beginning of our Rotational Grazing (roughly 5 years), our weaning rates have dropped drastically every year.
Cows are losing tails, many cows are sore footed, initial milk production in some cows after calving is very slow, taking 3-4 days to come in.
All cows stand in the creek most of the time. Some even laying flat in the creek.
Over 1/2 the cows are not shedding hair until late fall, if at all.
Spring calving cows if not bred before March, will not breed again until fall.
Calves are more prevalent to scours, pink eye, and foot rot. Newborns are more prone to navel infections as well. "
 
We feed the hay of the fescue in the winter months because the levels are lower then and the cattle can withstand the toxitity better. That's how. Okay, so the cattle will eat some of it in the summers too. But, we're still having to supplement with hay because they do refuse to eat what growing right in front of them. We've left them much too long before to make them graze the fescue and they hardly touch it.
 
creaturelink":zoxvfix8 said:
The super stinky problem is they refuse to eat the fescue. They will starve first.

Lot of cows not only survive but flourish on Ky 31, the old conventional type. Find it hard to believe that they will starve before eating it. Stop putting the dessert on the table first and you will see. JMO :)
 
Cowdirt":11lpfqzq said:
creaturelink":11lpfqzq said:
The super stinky problem is they refuse to eat the fescue. They will starve first.

Lot of cows not only survive but flourish on Ky 31, the old conventional type. Find it hard to believe that they will starve before eating it. Stop putting the dessert on the table first and you will see. JMO :)

Flourish!!! FLOURISH!!! are you serious??? Here in this state cattle do not flourish of KY31. Farmers just choose to ignore the fact their cattle are not up to par. Here, we like our cattle up to the snuff.


The stats of endophyte infected cattle are atrocious. We took over this herd after our father died 5 years ago. He kept half the cattle. We increased the cattle and increased soil management along with fertilization. We've resorted to feeding hay in the summer months per Agricultural Specialists at VATECH. However, I must say I believe he's more concerned with saving the Chesapeak Bay than instructing us on how to successfully manage a herd. It's amazing to me just a hop skip and a jump east in TN the word is increase the Lespedeza and clovers or switch to the max q.

I am interested in hearing from farmers that have implemented max q successfully or from hearing from farmers that have incurred the same problems we have and have overcome them and their methods.

I am not interested in someone telling me I shouldn't be feeding hay when I'm watching my weaning weights drop bi annually. :oops:
 
BTW - do a simple search on google for an analysis on weaning weights of cattle on endophyte infected hay vs. non or friendly see what you get. Or better yet do a simple search on endophyte alone vs. ky31 with lespedeza and clovers and legumes.
 
If you change to brahman cross cows you won't have that problem. I had that problem here in Tennessee and switched to brangus cross cattle.They can handle that infected grass where traditional beef cattle will overheat.Calves won't bring as much on the auction block but they grow faster and that makes up for the price difference. We also try to keep shelter for them because they can't stand the bitter cold we have here in the winter and I know Virginia is even colder. I considered planting new grass but changing the breed of cattle was much cheaper and those type cattle really can handle that infected grass.
 
creaturelink":1n0nsdyc said:
Flourish!!! FLOURISH!!! are you serious??? Here in this state cattle do not flourish of KY31.

Please don't break that news to my cows, they obviously haven't heard it yet.

What part of VA you in?

cfpinz
 
pfinz your grass might not be infected. He's not saying all of Virginia has this problem. I have been through this and understand what he is saying.
 
Our fescue has persisted on this farm for roughly 75 years. After each bout of drought it comes back while all of the other forages decline. Interseeding clover raised our weaning weights significantly, but the cows still eat the fescue. Look to a mineral that helps to conteract the fescue. I'm sure if we had other grasses for them to eat, especially during the summer, our weaning weights would be higher. Since we've selected for the cows that do well on fescue we don;t have much of a problem. Not one that's easily seen in weaning weights anyway.
I would be wondering if my weaning weights made a steady decline if possibly the genetics of my herd had changed enough that the cows no longer have the genetic capabiliy to raise a bigger calf and/or the claves don;t have the genetics to wean off as heavy.

dun
 
I use legumes. Try to get the haying done before the grass seeds. Clip the rest. The only problem we have in common is the rough hair coat. The grass was here when I got the place 15+ yrs ago. So I assume it's genuine infected KY31.
 
creaturelink":1ak21u86 said:
BTW - do a simple search on google for an analysis on weaning weights of cattle on endophyte infected hay vs. non or friendly see what you get. Or better yet do a simple search on endophyte alone vs. ky31 with lespedeza and clovers and legumes.

There are many agendas represented on this subject by folks with vested interests. Consider that. I like other viewpoints but my actions most generally are determined by my own experiences. JMHO
 
Cowdirt I don't see that anyone here has any particular agenda to push on anyone.I and everyone else here seem to be trying to help out by sharing our experiences.
 
I know how you feel. I live in west tennessee and have been fighting the problem for years. I have lost switches but it has been a long time ago. I used to have a problem with sore feet but have worked away from that. They guy is right about the earred cattle having less trouble. I have mostly black angus and I think they can be the worst. I have some reds that do well. I save my heifers and only save out of the first calfers so reproduction is important. You will slowly work your way into cattle that can handle the grass. From what I have heard about the new fescue it does not withstand drought very well. I still have a problem getting cows bred on time and like you say if you dont get them bred early and the grass declines and it gets hot it will be hard to get them bred. The things that I have done that has helped me the most are going to Furst McNess mineral. It is Bova Breeder 9 and is expensive but is a good place to spend money. I also have worked hard on soil fertility. Get it as good as you can afford to. I think it makes the fescue less toxic. I also keep it short. The mineral is high in copper and a copper deficiency has all of the same traits as a fescue problem. Look at the relationship between low copper. high sulfur and endophyte fescue. They all feed off of each other. I also think that the cattle we have today while the blood lines may be better are less able to handle the grass. When I was young my dad always had cattle on the same grass and didnt have trouble. He fed cheap stockade mineral that was not much more than salt. The cows were mostly reds. I have clovers and other grasses but dont think that solves anything. It helps but is not a fix.
 
bggoff":pjmoui0v said:
Cowdirt I don't see that anyone here has any particular agenda to push on anyone.I and everyone else here seem to be trying to help out by sharing our experiences.

bggogg,
I intended to speak of seed developers, seed retailers, ag magazines (advertising), and even county extension agents feeling that they must put out something new therefore,parrot the line of those mentioned above. And yes there is some parroting on these boards. JMHO
 

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