Different question for Idaman

[Frankie]

Don't want to hijack any of the Hereford threads. But I am interested in why you, as a long time Hereford breeder, think demand for Hereford breeding stock has dropped so much in the last 20 or so years?

 

[KNERSIE]

I'm not Idaman, but I feel that hereford breeders in general failed to adress the past issues of the breed to the satisfaction of the greater industry.

 

[Northern Rancher]

Failed to address the old issues and introduced a bunch of other ones in the meanwhile. The same Hereford breeders that would curse the poor doing no good exotic cattle would have a 2,000 pound sloppy uddered flush matron in their Hereford digest add. A Hereford cow was the mainstay in this country because she could go out and do her job without alot of fuss that was starting to get bred out of them. In alot of cases Angus bulls were brought in and fixed up calving ease and udders in one shot. We run both breeds here and in my opinion the slippery slope of popularity isn't doing the Angus breed any good-we'll run baldie cows here as long as we can but the ingrediants to make the kind I like can take some searching.

 

[Herefords.US]

Don't want to hijack any of the Hereford threads. But I am interested in why you, as a long time Hereford breeder, think demand for Hereford breeding stock has dropped so much in the last 20 or so years?

Based on everything I'm seeing, there has been a turnaround in that trend over the last couple of years.

As far as what happened in the 80s and 90s, I've become convinced, as I study the cattle from that era,
that Hereford breeders got caught in a "double-whammy" of the Continental invasion and the desire to compete with them(frame race) and an astute bunch of Black Angus breeders and association staff that concentrated on getting their brand established and marketed.

There are some good posts in this "old" thread:
http://www.cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=29080

George

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I'm not Idaman, but I feel that hereford breeders in general failed to adress the past issues of the breed to the satisfaction of the greater industry.

KNERSIE-

You have expressed a very concise and relevant statement - not only to the discusion at hand - but to the situations which exist with the Beef Cattle Industry in general. At the risk of lurching into a diatribe of many current beef breeding policies being applied by some (many?) Associations AND individual breeders, In My Opinion, the many fallacies being utilized today defy common logic and precise reasoning.

Everyone has dogmatic opinions and hypotheses regarding their business practices and direction if they wish to remain viable for any period of time. But when either individual breeders or groups of breeders focus on the benefits to themselves to the detriment of the majority - internal decay is inevitable. This state of affairs is exactly what has happened in the past to many groups and organizations - the "Roman Empire" being one of the most apparent examples. The Angus Breed has been dallying with disaster to the degradation and corruption of some, (not all), of the characteristics and traits which made the Breed the most effective money producing cattle in history! Hopefully wiser heads and common sense will prevail and reason and logic may once again take precedence in PROFITABLE cattle production.

The EXACT same set of circumstances has reared it ugly head in the current politics of the United States of America! May GOD grant that it does not continue to our demise.

DOC HARRIS

 

[Idaman]

Don't want to hijack any of the Hereford threads. But I am interested in why you, as a long time Hereford breeder, think demand for Hereford breeding stock has dropped so much in the last 20 or so years?

Simple answer = The blacks finish one to two weeks sooner in the same feeder pen.

Solution = Tough and long and drawn out.

Reason = We will have to breed for quicker finishing cattle and compete with the blacks. The pendulum will swing our way when we solve this short comming.

Example = Our neighbor who runs about 800 mother cows originally ran a herd of as good of Hereford purebred and commercial cows as you would ever hope to see. They are now almost entirely black and baldies, The other day I drove through a group of his cows coming up along the road and I wanted to see just how many Hereford bulls there were in them. One and about ten blacks. His Hereford bulls all came from Colyers, Harrells, and Feddes so they are not second class citizens. This man finnishes his own calves and buys several hundred to feed with hs own. The natural beef consortium that he sells to pays a decent premium but they are now demanding only straight black hides.

Another problem = We raise and run black bulls. In the summer when it gets real hot they just quit the cows and hole up in a thicket along a creek somewhere. It takes us a 410 to get them started for home. When they get home they are sent straight to the sale. This is only true on the purchased bulls. It also almost forces us to run some Hereford bulls for clean up so that is why you see some straight Hereford calves in our bunch.

Coming changes = There is a growing demand for Hereford bulls to sire tiger stripe cows and baldies. We DON'T sell bulls but we are even feeling the pressure.

 

[KMacGinley]

Don't want to hijack any of the Hereford threads. But I am interested in why you, as a long time Hereford breeder, think demand for Hereford breeding stock has dropped so much in the last 20 or so years?

Based on everything I'm seeing, there has been a turnaround in that trend over the last couple of years.

As far as what happened in the 80s and 90s, I've become convinced, as I study the cattle from that era,
that Hereford breeders got caught in a "double-whammy" of the Continental invasion and the desire to compete with them(frame race) and an astute bunch of Black Angus breeders and association staff that concentrated on getting their brand established and marketed.

There are some good posts in this "old" thread:
http://www.cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=29080

George

Who would be the elephant in the ad today George?

I think that we are in on the beginning of a sea change that will favor, moderate framed, easy fleshing trouble free, British type cattle, at any rate, those are the type that I like to look at and raise.

Been getting sale catalogs lately and the rear ends and capacity continue to shrink on the mainline type angus. They remind me of the modern type hogs.

 

[Northern Rancher]

Our baldies finish right with our straight blacks.

 

[Idaman]

Our baldies finish right with our straight blacks.

Its not the finishing its the CAB. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Northern Rancher]

Well baldies qualify for CAB-the breeds definately compliment each other. Those hills you used to run in give me the willies. I ran an A'I job in the Big Muddy badlands one time-it was pretty wild times bringing in those old sidehillers out of a 4 section A'I field.

 

[Idaman]

Well baldies qualify for CAB-the breeds definately compliment each other. Those hills you used to run in give me the willies. I ran an A'I job in the Big Muddy badlands one time-it was pretty wild times bringing in those old sidehillers out of a 4 section A'I field.

Agreed, but the natural beef consortium that buys the neighbors finished cattle won't take anything but black hides and I wonder if this isn't the future for CAB as well.

 

[Idaman]

Well baldies qualify for CAB-the breeds definately compliment each other. Those hills you used to run in give me the willies. I ran an A'I job in the Big Muddy badlands one time-it was pretty wild times bringing in those old sidehillers out of a 4 section A'I field.

We seldom ran cattle down in those hill and it got a lot flatter up on top. We still had ten to one hundred thousadn acre pastures to contend with.

From a house along the river you could look up the chimney and check the cows in the meadow.

Actully since I have visited many many end of the road ranches in hopes of finding the perfect one I would say that the Imnaha country in northeast Oregom is the steepest that it is possible to run on. Across the river in Idaho a friend of mine said that when he was a kid they saw an old horse way up on one of the ridges above their house. His dad said "See that horse, watch for him he will die there." For a long time the horse remained there and then one day he disappeared and rolled down onto their road.

I would love to have a ranch that is up there and is for sale by the man who we bought our present ranch from. He has always had it priced way above the market so it hasn't sold. I may offer him all I can when this place sells and see if he would go for it. No harm in offering. 18000 acres all deeded some timber and never have to feed hay again. Probably the best ranch in the whole northwest.

 

[Northern Rancher]

That would be a sweet deal for sure.

 

[Idaman]

That would be a sweet deal for sure.

I'll keep the progress posted.

 

[Frankie]

Don't want to hijack any of the Hereford threads. But I am interested in why you, as a long time Hereford breeder, think demand for Hereford breeding stock has dropped so much in the last 20 or so years?

Simple answer = The blacks finish one to two weeks sooner in the same feeder pen.
Solution = Tough and long and drawn out.

Reason = We will have to breed for quicker finishing cattle and compete with the blacks. The pendulum will swing our way when we solve this short comming.

Example = Our neighbor who runs about 800 mother cows originally ran a herd of as good of Hereford purebred and commercial cows as you would ever hope to see. They are now almost entirely black and baldies, The other day I drove through a group of his cows coming up along the road and I wanted to see just how many Hereford bulls there were in them. One and about ten blacks. His Hereford bulls all came from Colyers, Harrells, and Feddes so they are not second class citizens. This man finnishes his own calves and buys several hundred to feed with hs own. The natural beef consortium that he sells to pays a decent premium but they are now demanding only straight black hides.

Another problem = We raise and run black bulls. In the summer when it gets real hot they just quit the cows and hole up in a thicket along a creek somewhere. It takes us a 410 to get them started for home. When they get home they are sent straight to the sale. This is only true on the purchased bulls. It also almost forces us to run some Hereford bulls for clean up so that is why you see some straight Hereford calves in our bunch.

Coming changes = There is a growing demand for Hereford bulls to sire tiger stripe cows and baldies. We DON'T sell bulls but we are even feeling the pressure.

An interesting response. Certainly not what I expected and I don't really agree with it. In my opinion, the real problem for Herefords is the demand for "angus" beef. Here's a link to the USDA page that lists all the branded beef programs. Take a look at the brands requiring "angus" influence. For most of these programs "angus" = black, thus the demand for black cattle.

http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/ams.fet ... acct=lsstd

 

[3waycross]

Don't want to hijack any of the Hereford threads. But I am interested in why you, as a long time Hereford breeder, think demand for Hereford breeding stock has dropped so much in the last 20 or so years?

Simple answer = The blacks finish one to two weeks sooner in the same feeder pen.
Solution = Tough and long and drawn out.

Reason = We will have to breed for quicker finishing cattle and compete with the blacks. The pendulum will swing our way when we solve this short comming.

Example = Our neighbor who runs about 800 mother cows originally ran a herd of as good of Hereford purebred and commercial cows as you would ever hope to see. They are now almost entirely black and baldies, The other day I drove through a group of his cows coming up along the road and I wanted to see just how many Hereford bulls there were in them. One and about ten blacks. His Hereford bulls all came from Colyers, Harrells, and Feddes so they are not second class citizens. This man finnishes his own calves and buys several hundred to feed with hs own. The natural beef consortium that he sells to pays a decent premium but they are now demanding only straight black hides.

Another problem = We raise and run black bulls. In the summer when it gets real hot they just quit the cows and hole up in a thicket along a creek somewhere. It takes us a 410 to get them started for home. When they get home they are sent straight to the sale. This is only true on the purchased bulls. It also almost forces us to run some Hereford bulls for clean up so that is why you see some straight Hereford calves in our bunch.

Coming changes = There is a growing demand for Hereford bulls to sire tiger stripe cows and baldies. We DON'T sell bulls but we are even feeling the pressure.

An interesting response. Certainly not what I expected and I don't really agree with it. In my opinion, the real problem for Herefords is the demand for "angus" beef. Here's a link to the USDA page that lists all the branded beef programs. Take a look at the brands requiring "angus" influence. For most of these programs "angus" = black, thus the demand for black cattle.

http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/ams.fet ... acct=lsstd

I knew this was coming. This whole thread was a setup for yet another advertisement for the Angus breed. Hey Frankie why not just post a thread called my daily link to the latest pimp for the Angus breed, instead of cleverly setting people up like you have done here.

I smelled this one coming a mile away ;-)

 

[alacattleman]

Don't want to hijack any of the Hereford threads. But I am interested in why you, as a long time Hereford breeder, think demand for Hereford breeding stock has dropped so much in the last 20 or so years?

Simple answer = The blacks finish one to two weeks sooner in the same feeder pen.
Solution = Tough and long and drawn out.

Reason = We will have to breed for quicker finishing cattle and compete with the blacks. The pendulum will swing our way when we solve this short comming.

Example = Our neighbor who runs about 800 mother cows originally ran a herd of as good of Hereford purebred and commercial cows as you would ever hope to see. They are now almost entirely black and baldies, The other day I drove through a group of his cows coming up along the road and I wanted to see just how many Hereford bulls there were in them. One and about ten blacks. His Hereford bulls all came from Colyers, Harrells, and Feddes so they are not second class citizens. This man finnishes his own calves and buys several hundred to feed with hs own. The natural beef consortium that he sells to pays a decent premium but they are now demanding only straight black hides.

Another problem = We raise and run black bulls. In the summer when it gets real hot they just quit the cows and hole up in a thicket along a creek somewhere. It takes us a 410 to get them started for home. When they get home they are sent straight to the sale. This is only true on the purchased bulls. It also almost forces us to run some Hereford bulls for clean up so that is why you see some straight Hereford calves in our bunch.

Coming changes = There is a growing demand for Hereford bulls to sire tiger stripe cows and baldies. We DON'T sell bulls but we are even feeling the pressure.

An interesting response. Certainly not what I expected and I don't really agree with it. In my opinion, the real problem for Herefords is the demand for "angus" beef. Here's a link to the USDA page that lists all the branded beef programs. Take a look at the brands requiring "angus" influence. For most of these programs "angus" = black, thus the demand for black cattle.

http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/ams.fet ... acct=lsstd

that where this was going all along,,, if thats the problem

 

[cfpinz]

I knew this was coming. This whole thread was a setup for yet another advertisement for the Angus breed. Hey Frankie why not just post a thread called my daily link to the latest pimp for the Angus breed, instead of cleverly setting people up like you have done here.

I smelled this one coming a mile away ;-)

She's about as predictable as TennesseeMasterCattleProducer or whatever his name of the day is. Not quite sure which one's the biggest joke, though.

 

[Idaman]

Don't want to hijack any of the Hereford threads. But I am interested in why you, as a long time Hereford breeder, think demand for Hereford breeding stock has dropped so much in the last 20 or so years?

Simple answer = The blacks finish one to two weeks sooner in the same feeder pen.
Solution = Tough and long and drawn out.

Reason = We will have to breed for quicker finishing cattle and compete with the blacks. The pendulum will swing our way when we solve this short comming.

Example = Our neighbor who runs about 800 mother cows originally ran a herd of as good of Hereford purebred and commercial cows as you would ever hope to see. They are now almost entirely black and baldies, The other day I drove through a group of his cows coming up along the road and I wanted to see just how many Hereford bulls there were in them. One and about ten blacks. His Hereford bulls all came from Colyers, Harrells, and Feddes so they are not second class citizens. This man finnishes his own calves and buys several hundred to feed with hs own. The natural beef consortium that he sells to pays a decent premium but they are now demanding only straight black hides.

Another problem = We raise and run black bulls. In the summer when it gets real hot they just quit the cows and hole up in a thicket along a creek somewhere. It takes us a 410 to get them started for home. When they get home they are sent straight to the sale. This is only true on the purchased bulls. It also almost forces us to run some Hereford bulls for clean up so that is why you see some straight Hereford calves in our bunch.

Coming changes = There is a growing demand for Hereford bulls to sire tiger stripe cows and baldies. We DON'T sell bulls but we are even feeling the pressure.

An interesting response. Certainly not what I expected and I don't really agree with it. In my opinion, the real problem for Herefords is the demand for "angus" beef. Here's a link to the USDA page that lists all the branded beef programs. Take a look at the brands requiring "angus" influence. For most of these programs "angus" = black, thus the demand for black cattle.

http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/ams.fet ... acct=lsstd

To me they go hand in hand. The AAA has definetly capitalized on the differences and short comings but that pendulum will change even though we are as of friday breeding purebred Angus cattle.

 

[Northern Rancher]

I'd say it was more an appreciation of Angus convenience than demand for CAB. If purebred Hereford breeders would of treated prolapses and bad udders as reportable diseases it sure would of helped-I know I sure value the breeders who did so as well as parking their mix mill.