Dairy Farming

[born2run]

Jerry...

I've only seen printouts of DHI records using Dairy Comp. Herd Pro's StocKeeper is what I use at work, and I've become famaliar with it enough to really like it.

 

[J and L]

Born2run,
What's really important is that you can get the info that YOU need, and that it is convienent to use. It is a lot of work to learn some of these programs to the point were they are handy. "If it isn't broke don't fix it". Again we are not really familiar with other programs.
Jerry

 

[born2run]

Yep, valid point. I know a lot of other dairies use Dairy Comp 305. From what I've seen of it I'm sure I could adapt.

 

[milkmaid]

Milkmaid, Nice cows/calves!
I never made it to Twin Falls a couple of weeks ago. The person that I would have been traveling from Billings had gotten bit by a dog prior to leaving Indiana and never made the trip. Too much driving to do alone. So a friend and I are making the trip from here next week. What is the weather going to be the end of next week in ID?
Jerry

Thanks

Not that I trust the weather reports, LOL, but my opinion on the weather is that it'll be mild through next week. We had quite the bout of crazy weather; snowing one day, hot the next. But it appears to be evening out now; roads are dry, occasional 1-inch-or-less, snow "showers", relatively clear skies - my guess is that this will hold up through next week. You should have clear driving.

 

[J and L]

Thanks for the weather report. We will be driving from Salt Lake City. Did you get the vaccination info? Any more Questions?
Jerry

 

[milkmaid]

I did get the vaccination info - thanks! I did have some questions on the vaccs...will get to that next. First thing on my mind is AI sires. :lol:

I have a few cows to breed in the near future...main one that I'm interested in a good bull for is this one. This is my 311 cow. (Others I'll breed and either sell as springers or sell the calf as a springer; but this cow's calf could be staying a lot longer than that.)

(3 days prior to calving)

(after calving)

3rd or 4th lactation cow. I raised calves on her all last year; one of the culls I rehabilitated. Right now she's fresh, running with boss's herd. She was doing about 90lbs/day at a week in milk, and I can't have a nurse cow doing that much. LOL.

I'm looking for a reliable (90%+) bull that will give a little more udder width. Low SCS (I've treated this cow for mastitis 5 times within the last year, diff quarters each time, and she's back on antibiotics right now). Bull that throws daughters with excellent feet and legs. Same on Dairy Form. Those are the main things in my book.

Increase on udder depth is optional (but not negative depth; no shallow udders!), and no need for an increase in stature (she's about 1400lbs and that's just right in my book). This cow calves easily and has bred back first service last two pregnancies I remember, so I want to keep the calving ease and fertility...and an increase in milk is OK, I just don't think I need +2370lbs. LOL.

And I'll put it this way; price isn't really a question on this cow. Whatever bull is best for her.

I've been looking through the Select Sires directory as we do have a SS rep that comes through the area on a regular basis and one of those bulls would be easiest.

Any thoughts on bulls? anything you'd suggest?

Also, I think what I need a "bit" of help on too is understanding the numbers here. Most of them make perfect sense to me, but not all. LOL. Can you help?

DPR - daughters pregnancy rates? And positive numbers are better...higher the better?

Calving ease - %DBH - percent difficult births heifers? So lower numbers here are better, right?

Now how about the "Standard Transmitting Abilities"?

Catagories are...
Stature
Dairy Form
Strength
Body Depth
Rump Width
Rump Angle
Legs Side View
Legs Rear View
Foot Angle
Feet & Legs Score
Fore Attachment
Rear Udder Height
Rear Udder Width
Udder Cleft
Udder Depth
Front Teat Place
Front Teat Length

Scoring goes from a -2 to a +2. Is it best to have positive numbers on EVERYTHING? And how does this scoring system go? For instance - Stature. -2 equals "short", +2 equals "tall" - ??? How about feet and legs score? how's that one work?

Any help here is greatly appreciated. :lol: ;-)

 

[K-SHIRES]

I did get the vaccination info - thanks! I did have some questions on the vaccs...will get to that next. First thing on my mind is AI sires. :lol:

I have a few cows to breed in the near future...main one that I'm interested in a good bull for is this one. This is my 311 cow. (Others I'll breed and either sell as springers or sell the calf as a springer; but this cow's calf could be staying a lot longer than that.)

(3 days prior to calving)

(after calving)

3rd or 4th lactation cow. I raised calves on her all last year; one of the culls I rehabilitated. Right now she's fresh, running with boss's herd. She was doing about 90lbs/day at a week in milk, and I can't have a nurse cow doing that much. LOL.

I'm looking for a reliable (90%+) bull that will give a little more udder width. Low SCS (I've treated this cow for mastitis 5 times within the last year, diff quarters each time, and she's back on antibiotics right now). Bull that throws daughters with excellent feet and legs. Same on Dairy Form. Those are the main things in my book.

Increase on udder depth is optional (but not negative depth; no shallow udders!), and no need for an increase in stature (she's about 1400lbs and that's just right in my book). This cow calves easily and has bred back first service last two pregnancies I remember, so I want to keep the calving ease and fertility...and an increase in milk is OK, I just don't think I need +2370lbs. LOL.

And I'll put it this way; price isn't really a question on this cow. Whatever bull is best for her.

I've been looking through the Select Sires directory as we do have a SS rep that comes through the area on a regular basis and one of those bulls would be easiest.

Any thoughts on bulls? anything you'd suggest?

Also, I think what I need a "bit" of help on too is understanding the numbers here. Most of them make perfect sense to me, but not all. LOL. Can you help?

DPR - daughters pregnancy rates? And positive numbers are better...higher the better?

Calving ease - %DBH - percent difficult births heifers? So lower numbers here are better, right?

Now how about the "Standard Transmitting Abilities"?

Catagories are...
Stature
Dairy Form
Strength
Body Depth
Rump Width
Rump Angle
Legs Side View
Legs Rear View
Foot Angle
Feet & Legs Score
Fore Attachment
Rear Udder Height
Rear Udder Width
Udder Cleft
Udder Depth
Front Teat Place
Front Teat Length

Scoring goes from a -2 to a +2. Is it best to have positive numbers on EVERYTHING? And how does this scoring system go? For instance - Stature. -2 equals "short", +2 equals "tall" - ??? How about feet and legs score? how's that one work?

Any help here is greatly appreciated. :lol: ;-)

Howdy, I'm goin' out on a limb here and reccommend you breed 311 to 7h7004 Damion. If he is not available, would use 7h6758 Mr. Sam. Looking at picture, 311 could use a little more body depth and sweep of rib. The pic may deceive me, but i think her rear legs tend to sweep a little to the forwaard(Sickle) not bad, mind you-she's a strong cow, but this is why I would use Damion over Mr. Sam. Mr. Sam would accentuate or maintain sickle set to leg, whereas Damion would move rear legs towards posty just a bit. Both bulls would give her just a wee bit stronger center rear udder ligament support, but Damion does it better.
*It is not best to have positve numbers on everything. For example, on Front teat length, Damion show +.42, which means longer front teat. Wheras, if you look at the bull RSVP (7H6960) you will see -.24 which means shorter front teats. Most modern dairy cows short teats better- less chance of getting stepped on or injured. Your 311 was good enough that didn't need to zero in on teat lenght as an area of improvement. Anyways, best to look at cow for most obvius areas you want to improve, pick bull that "fixes" for next generation without any glaring deficiencies in his linear proof, and use accordingly.
A good way to pick bulls is to look at the Linear chart(the ones with the little black bars) They will make more sense on balance than all those numbers you can't remember anyways.
A good rule of thumb is, the more black bars to the right of center on linear, the better the bull.
As I always say, don't confuse me with the facts! If I am wrong on your 311, keep in mind I'm sitting over 1,000 miles away looking at a picture! Hope this helps.

 

[K-SHIRES]

Currently milking in a double 6 built 11 years ago along with 275 frestalls. So youse it is a tight fit right know. the knew one will be a germania double 12 expandable to 16 with a direct load to tankers. Do you have a preference for a harringbone over parallel?
Jerry

J&L - I am late to discussion as y'all came buckin' out of chute so fast that i got left in dust. As you are talking Germania, did you have the opportunity to talk to a Mr. Rolf Riesgies of Rhinelander WI?. Reason I mention, he has many parlors which he re-manufactures at his biz there. A very knowledgable resource on Germania -He built and owned Germania. Sold company, now buys, re-mans and sells parlors of all sizes.
You have probably allready explored this, if so please disregard my suggestion. If not his E-Mail is [email protected] He's brilliant on parlors if you run into any snags.

 

[K-SHIRES]

J&L- Two thoughts on parlors - We are moving into a herringbone because: We have various size cows ranging from 1500 lb. Holstiens to 1000 lb. New Zealand Ayrshires. A smaller cow can scoot forward in parallel, and your arms just are'nt long enough even when chest is pressed against pipes. Also, old cows won't adapt, as Texas dairyman pointed out. Also, cows turning a sharp right angle can blow out their hocks. this even applies to run lanes to holding area. All of ours wiil be curves or wide sweeping corners. Just our thoughts on the matter. K-SHIRES.

 

[J and L]

Thanks for Rolf's e-mail. There was an article about his new venture in one of the farm papers last spring. I did every kind of internet search I could think of and couldn't find a new business name or #. Rolf does know his stuff. A friend of ours sold for Germania in 90-95? and we were able to tour the manufacturing facility, etc and had a couple of intereting talks with Rolf. I will contact him and see what he has to say. Germania in in a class of its own when it comes to parlor design, etc. We are flying this friend from Denver to Salt Lake to join Jerry in viewing the used parlor.

Thanks too for helping with the "choose a sire" question. While Jerry, the herdsman and I do the arm work we depend alot on the mating service from Accelerated. Neither of us has much experience in the registered world...
Linda

 

[K-SHIRES]

Having a professional go thru and rank matings annually is a good tool. Fun to do your own and then go and compare what company man said. We don't always agree. But, as you know, when making hay - LOOK OUT, it's katie bar the door- grab semen based on mating sheet, breed and MOVE ON!
Nice chatting with y'all.

 

[born2run]

Could make a new post I suppose, but I'll throw this question in on this one.

Oxytocin use...how often do you use it and on what cows? If you use it for every milking, do you have a tough time getting these cows to settle?

 

[J and L]

Oxytocin, A real burr under my saddle! We use it on some new mastitis cases to help clean things out. This a valid use in my opinion. Sometimes it is used on a fresh heifer that is nervous in the stall, usually only once. This is also a valid use. At one time,without our knowledge, we found it being used on 21 of obout 250 cows milked. Linda and I let this happen by failure to educate the milkers about the adictiveness of the drug and that often times milker use it as an alternative to good cow handling and proper preping. Today routine use is 1 out of 325. Needless to say, we resist the use it as an ongoing therepy as much as we can. I have never heard of poor conception and oxytocin going hand in hand but that doesn't mean that it isn't so. Maybe if the cow has poor let down she may also have high scc or clinical infection causing poor conception?
Jerry

 

[K-SHIRES]

Could make a new post I suppose, but I'll throw this question in on this one.

Oxytocin use...how often do you use it and on what cows? If you use it for every milking, do you have a tough time getting these cows to settle?

Oxytocin - Never use it atall. If during milking, noone raises voice or moves too quickly, most cows will relax and let down. If a cow has to have that to milk, and is going to be chronic mastitis without it, then her dtrs. and on down will be same, so they will be gone. Besides, using it means you have to buy it, store it, train labor in it's use, spend labor to administer it, and dispose of more garbage. The less special things you do during milking, more efficient you'll be. Better off without it IMO.

 

[born2run]

When I first started my current job over 2 1/2 years ago we dispensed Oxytocin like water. Coming from another dairy where they guarded it with their life (well almost LOL) this was odd to me. Now there are only three cows on it, out of a herd of over 430. Two of the cows are bred back, and have been on oxytocin their entire lactation. These cows, in earlier stages of their lactation, would have come down with acute masitis without it being used. The other one, ironically, is not bred back. I asked the herd manager about this two days ago, and he told me that he feels like it was the oxytocin that caused her failure to settle. He said there were about 5 other cows during the same time frame, also on oxytocin, that were having a tough time taking, and said it was just too coincidental.

Now we have a strict "don't give" policy. While I think it may have it's place for a case of mild mastitis, I can see the boss/manager's point and respect that.

If during milking, noone raises voice or moves too quickly, most cows will relax and let down.

Just curious if you have employees, or do you do all your own milking?

 

[K-SHIRES]

Born2run - On your question, we are a small potatoes husband and wife Dairy, so either I or my wife does all milking, as well as anything else that gets done around here! That said, there is huge gains in efficiency for large dairies that make it a solid policy that people working with cows keep their cool, don't scream or cuss at cows, and move in a steady(not neccesarily slow) pace. Cows just don't like surprizes, and raised voice levels actually cause them more physical pain than being slapped on the butt to move them over.
Yes, OXY can help a heifer let down. Yes, maybe it can help with Mastitis. My viewpoint is an economic one. For example, if 3 out of 430 cows on dairy using it, I would say gains are statistically outweighed by cost of stocking, storing ,monitoring usage. And needles along with their disposal ain't free either.
Yes, we may have a heifer that takes alittle longer to get past udder edema. If Mastitis comes, I reckon we'd treat it like any other case. I wasn't aware of your employer's conclusions as to affect on repro. But that don't surprise me. Any time you alter a cow's chemical nature, you can throw off or delay conception. Not much differnt than humans there.
One other thought - A new heifer is in strange surroundings, her bag hurts as it is tight with milk, and she misses her calf. So what do dairy folks do when she's not letting down? LET'S STICK A BIG NEEDLE IN HER! That would relax me!
Next time you have a heifer like that, try rubbing both sides of it's tailhead with one hand, and talking gently. Quicker to reach up and do that than go and get needle, draw out solution, give shot, jump out of way when she kicks, put needle and pharmeceutical bottle back.
Y'all can suit yourself - As for me I just don't believe the best economic solution always comes out of a bottle.
*******************
Hey born2run addl. info - my wife informed me that vets visiting her father's dairy would use oxytocin to induce labor in heifers, as it Encourages, stimulates contraction of the Uterus. If this is so, a plausible theory might be egg is fertilized at breeding, but then embrionic death loss due to contracting of uterus(when it shouldn't be). I'm not a vet or Phd( The only Phd I have is my Post Hole Digger ) so I'll stop here, but suspect your Employer is on to something there.

 

[milkmaid]

I tend to feel that oxytocin might cause lower fertility rates, but due to the amount of oxy we use for milk letdown (1-2cc's) in relation to the amount used for o.b. purposes (10cc's) - I don't feel that that a cow on oxy with lower fertility rates can be blamed entirely on the oxytocin she's receiving.

In addition to that fact, the conclusion I reached the other day reading through my vet textbooks, was that the uterus only responds to oxytocin while under the influence of estrogen. Between actual estrus and during pregnancy, the reproductive tract is under the influence of progesterone. It's only at calving or during estrus that the repro tract is influenced by estrogen. And, based on what I was reading the other day, the fertilized egg does not reach the uterus until 4-5 days past ovulation. By that time, surely, the uterus is no longer influenced by estrogen.

Now, if someone shows me a convincing article with a different standpoint, I'd be more than willing to consider it and change my views. ;-)

Might be good to note here-- we very rarely have cows that need oxytocin. Had 3 new heifers calve last spring that all needed it (one wouldn't letdown without 4cc's IM and several minutes between prep and milker attachment) and we weaned them down to about 1/2cc per milking over several months. We - or at least I - wondered if they had a common sire. Just too coincidental. Eventually we said, "This is ridiculous" - and cut them completely off oxytocin. 2, maybe 3 milkings before they'd letdown completely, but they're all fine now. Two of the three just entered their 2nd lactation.

Only have one cow on it right now, first lactation cow, in milk about a week. We tried different things - longer time between prep and milker attachment - few minutes massaging the udder to try and stimulate her to let down - and this girl wasn't at all nervous in the barn. She'd eat her grain like the rest of them - she just wouldn't let her milk down. Boss gave in for now, but we don't intend to keep her on oxy long.

Other things: K-shires - thanks for the response on bulls. You are right about 311's conformation...basically same things I'd been thinking. Her legs are a bit hard to evaluate; L/R had severe footrot about 15 months ago (reason for her being a cull cow) and while she is sound now and I keep that hoof trimmed up on a regular basis, she still doesn't stand perfect on it. She could use a little more in the body - rib - department as well. Just a tad slab-sided.

Here's another picture of her, different angle, last summer while raising four angus/holstein cross calves.

I had glanced at both of those bulls, but like I said, wasn't sure as I'm not completely comfortable reading the charts. :lol: Once you pointed out what you liked about them, I agree with you on Damion. (Have to wonder why they don't offer sexed semen on the really good bulls - they're only offering it now on eight so-so, $20 bulls. I'd rather have the sexed semen on a $40 bull. You wouldn't happen to know if they'll have sexed semen available on Damion, Blitz, Mr Sam, etc later this spring, would you?)

J and L - didn't see dehorning on your list. When do you dehorn? and with what? I've chopped them off, and I've used dehorning paste. I think I prefer the results with the paste better, but certainly just chopping them off is easier. Not familiar with J-vac either...what's that one cover?

 

[J and L]

Milkmaid, Good catch on the dehorning. We use a butane operated tool to burn the growth point at 4-6 weeks. We sedate the calves for this. This can even be done earlyer with good sucsess.

Just one thing on the oxy issue and that is that over the years I have learned to not be too quick to apply black and white decissions to stuations that are not always so black and white. As stated before, our problems were a fault of education and proticol. With our calibur of employee that we currently have this was easily taken care of. I know we have saved cows/lactations with the proper use of oxytocin and that the value of that cow, her production, and genetic potential outway the cost of inventory, dispencing, and management costs. Again the key, to me, here is proper proticols and follwing them. I would be more willing to let someone go for not following procedures, than to loose a cow due to not having a regiment that could help her for fear it would not be followed.
Jerry

 

[born2run]

Proper protocol being followed is key, Jerry. The boss' daughter was great not doing that for awhile. She'd shoot everyone up, and the oxy was dissapearing at an alarming rate. Not sure who yelled at her first, the herd manager or her dad, but at any rate it stopped.

 

[J and L]

Linda writing now-
On the oxytocin issue-- alot of what I do it teach employees how to make judgement calls. When properly trained employees will make decisions using the same process I do. We've found that most employees relish being taught how to make the call, not just what the call should be. While I fully agree that shots should not be the norm, my experience has been that hooked on oxytocin one lactation does not mean hooked for life. Oxytocin is like many other hormones-- animals will cut back their natural production of the chemical if there is an easier supply of it. BST is a great example of this. While a cow might give +10 over her natural production with it, if she is on it for 3 months she will drop 15-20 below her "natural" curve when it is stopped because her body is trusting another source for it and thus has reduced her own output of it. Her output resets next lactation (this is why the reduced BST supply sharply dropped milk production and is also why 6 months later milk supply was rebounding without it-- cows were freshening again and continuing on their own curves)

With all decisions the scerenio sets the stage-- for example, it is 11:00 PM on a -2 degree F night and a new heifer is in the parlor. After the normal prep and attach, the heifer lets down some but unit comes off quickly and the udder is still very tight. Oxytocin or no? Here, the permission would be a hands down "yes"-- the reasoning: heifers that let down some but not all are not likely to get a full letdown on a second attach. The temp says that if the heifer starts to drip in the freestall before the next milking frozen teat ends are a real possibility-- it is easy economics to see that the potential of losing one or more quarters on a $2000 heifer is much more significant than having her on shots a couple of days.

Second example: Fantastic cow, teat end injury and mastitis. Pain can keep a cow from letting down completely, so oxytocin with antibiotics is normal. Most cows will resume normal letdown once treatment stops. Occasionally the cow needs oxytocin for longer than the treatment-- I've always suspected that in this case the injury pain is overriding normal letdown.

Third example: Nervous heifer, mid summer day. As in scene 1-- unit comes off early and udder is still tight. The call? Re-prep and reattach-- then let her go no matter the result. The risk from her not milking out is very low if she has no mastitis.

As for inheriting letdown, I can't say I've seen a correlation. Cysts-- yes--I've seen that in families. Mastitis-- not specifically. I learned a real lesson on inheritibility when we purchased a herd where cow families had the same first letter for their names. Matilda, Menerd, Matea, Mildred, Maggie-- all related, all dripped on the left rear quarters. I don't believe that mastitis is inherited-- I do believe that physical characteristics that can cause susceptibility are. Just as being an NBA star wouldn't be inherited but the height that would help one become a star would be.

Linda