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born2run

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Jerry...

What happened is that they started simply not paying me for time I was working. When confronted I got back 8 hours, not the full 12 plus that I was shorted. I try to be content and think hey, I got back at least those...but it's tough. They told me that I'm getting paid up to 50 hours/week, 100/pay period due to the falling milk prices. I'm fine with this, but I'll have to do some rearranging of my time. I don't know what to do about those shifts like last night where a couple little things go wrong and run me up to 8 1/2. They make no exception for this, so after 3 AM I work for free.
 
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J and L

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Born2run, I do understand the softer milk price, however that is not nessesarily your problem. It is not right for them to just declare wage/hour consessions. There are probably better ways to handle this. Seems like employee/employer discusions could result in a solution to short term cash flow issues in such a manner that lets both parties would own the solution.

So, it sounds like you are salaried at this point and experiencing one of the problems that I mentioned. Hours don`t match the workload. As you say,tough for someone who cares.
Jerry
 

born2run

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Jerry...
Thanks for "listening". Yes, they've essentially salaried me, which is why I asked the initial question to begin with. What I would've appreciated was a bit more honesty. I had wondered since last month if they were shorting me, but I wasn't going to whine about 4 hours. It wasn't until yesterday that it came to a head and had to be confronted.

I had a pretty lengthy text message conversation with the herd manager this morning. He at first told me to go tell them I wanted $400/month more, salary. When asked if they'd pay me, he said probably not, but you work hard enough for it. If anything can dull my irritation, it was that last part. He notices what I do, even if they don't. I'm not about to walk away from my job when it isn't done. I won't leave cows without feed, or not treat because of them shorting me. On the other hand I very well may stop spending time pressure washing. That isn't essential to the herd's health.

Herd manager told me to stick it out until 07 and the expansion. Hopefully it'll improve then.
 
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J and L

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Born2run, How will the expansion change the employment philosophy of the owners of the dairy?
Jerry
 

milkmaid

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Hi Jerry/Linda...Sorry I wasn't around this past week. I would have liked to have been able to meet and talk with you in person. Perhaps some other time. I was out of town again - I believe that was the third time within the past month. :roll: Just got back today; thankfully this should be the last time I'm gone for any significant amount of time until August.

It is pretty out here, isn't it? Of course it's all a little brown now, as the snow is melting, but given another month everything will green up as summer arrives. :) What farm were you at?

More later...
 

born2run

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I think the general idea is that with more cows it'll mean more cash flow and a more generous boss. He's told the herd manager we all deserve a raise, which should be coming when the bottling plant goes up. They haven't always behaved like this, which leads me to believe that they are just experiencing tough times and reacting to it.
 
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J and L

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Milkmaid, It seemed nice out there. We flew into Salt Lake and drove toTwin Falls. The farm was about 3 mi north of there. The owner of the farm was Mike Vestra, about 1000 cows. I was amazed at how little housing that the cows had. It must not get very cold and nasty there. The most interesting thing we saw was the Snake River Canyon. We were probably well south of were you are. I didn`t buy the used parlor but the trip was worth it just to rule it out.
 

born2run

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Funny thing is that Idaho's weather seems to mimic ours, Jerry. Milkmaid and I have been conversing since November, and I kid you not, their weather is darn close to ours, sometimes colder. I can't see how they get by with housing all those cows outside.
 

milkmaid

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About 3 hours south of me. I made that trip from Twin Falls to home just this afternoon. Think it came out to 3 hours and 15 minutes.

Cows out here aren't housed in freestall barns...most of the time it's an empty lot with a shed on one side or an open-sided shelter with a roof in the middle of the lot. I wouldn't say the weather is that friendly either. Boss's cows have nice stalls in sheds near the feeders and one barn with 40 stalls on each side...looks a bit like born2run's pics of the freestall barns, but boss's cows aren't enclosed in a barn - they're free to come and go.

My vet was telling me a few months ago that we weren't the only ones dealing with lots of new mastitis cases and high SCCs. A lot of the other dairies around us were having trouble too - the cows (esp fresh heifers) were getting frostbitten teats due to the -20F weather. Obviously it caused damage to the teat ends and almost all of those cows showed up afterwards with severe mastitis. We did quite a bit of culling and drying off after that cold spell to get the SCC down to a normal level.

What are milk prices like on your side of the country? I picked up some calves from a dairy in Wyoming last week, and they told me they were getting 9.60/cwt minus .90/cwt for shipping it (local creamery closed; they were sending it 2 1/2 hours away to another creamery in Idaho). Boss said something about 10.32/cwt recently as base price, and I heard another local dairy farmer (with a 4.1 fat content) say something about 12/cwt for his milk. How's that compare to prices out there?
 
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J and L

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Milk price for the spring looks like 10.90-11.25 plus 1.00 componant,quality, and volume premiums. I am not surprised to hear that winter weather causes problems from time to time. What would typical production be out of a dairy out there? Our cows go down in milk when it rains and they are inside!
 

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J and L":3txoi8lq said:
Milk price for the spring looks like 10.90-11.25 plus 1.00 componant,quality, and volume premiums. I am not surprised to hear that winter weather causes problems from time to time. What would typical production be out of a dairy out there? Our cows go down in milk when it rains and they are inside!

There's a 3000 cow dairy about 1 1/2 hours from me (south), and what I heard from the fellow that trims hooves for them is that they're getting 87lbs RHA. 20% of the herd on BST. (They are running a second herd with the lower cows and ones with leg/hoof/udder/mastitis/etc problems.)

Fellow not far from me running 51 is getting a 66lb RHA with cows on pasture with no shelter all winter. 80,000 SCC week before last when I talked to him. No BST. TMR ration.

Fellow I got the calves from appeared to be running the herd on pasture, had a 300,000 SCC and 44lb herd average. No BST. No DHI records. No TMR.

My boss's cows drop on production a little bit in really nasty weather, but not too much. I think they get used to the weather, -and- a lot of the feeders are right in front of the stalls and the cows have a roof overhead.

How's all that compare to dairies out your way?
 
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J and L

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Milkmaid, I can`t speak for others but our production runs 83-89#/cow milked in the tank /day. We like to think that 90-95 is within reach once settled into the new barns. scc is between 125 and 225. We have about 25% of 375 cows on BST. This is used mostly as a tool to make up for poor repro.

We have a wide range of managment styles on daries here, small, large, stall barn, grazed, parlor/freestall, regestered, grade, holstien, and colored.
Jerry
 
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J and L

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Hi Linda here--a suggestion about the wage issue.
You have the right idea about trade offs needing to be made but it is the owner or herdsman who should be the ones to make the tough choices that balance time and work that could be done. For example, perhaps the cleaning should be cut-- but that shouldn't be your call because otherwise you might hear about it when the parlor is dirty.

It is EXTREMELY important for you to discuss this with the herdsman and/or owner. Both they and you must make informed, conscious decisions otherwise you could end up feeling used and abused when "things" happen and you must work for free, and they might feel that you are just doing a poor job when things change. Please note that I am not saying there is a clear cut answer here. With any choice there are gains and losses-- and you must do what you can live with long term.

Among the possibilities I see:
1) You could keep doing what you are now and occasionally putting in hours for "free." You cannot assume that there will be a bonus or extra pay, etc. There is no promise here only the herdsman's encouragement to "hope" things will get better ---and that is inviting trouble. So if 2007 rolls around and you have put in 100 extra hours without pay-- the milk plant is slow getting running and the $ aren't there for a raise-- How will you feel? Is the pride of a job well done worth giving away a few hours? Sometimes the answer to this is a resounding "YES!"-- and sometimes a blatent "no." You must decide.

2) You can choose to only work the number of hours you are paid for. Perhaps this will mean coming in 30 minutes before milking and doing only the cleaning your remaining time allows. If you have a fresh or sick cow the cleaning gets cut. Again, the boss needs to be in on this one because they need to know that they will get what they pay for--- and somethimes there will be things not done to today's level.

3) You can ask the herdsman to talk to the boss. From what you have said, the herdsman is the one who knows the quality of your work and whether you are making wise use of time. While this next statement sounds blunt, I don't know how else to put it-- having the herdsman give you a pat on the back and say "good girl" will not balance feeling cheated on a paycheck for the long term. If the herdsman really sees a value in what you do beyond what others do, he should be willing to push your case. Someone needs to have the flexibility in their schedule for contingencies....how does he believe this should be covered? Should it be you?

3) Perhaps all should be charged with finding ways to work more efficiently. Do you have ideas you can bring to the table? Perhaps some things could be done more efficiently during the day or by another person leaving you time for contingencies?
Periodically all businesses need to look at what they can stop doing-- for example, perhaps a spotless parlor must take back seat to watching for heats, etc when $$ are short.

No matter what the outcome, I cannot put enough emphasis on the need for conscious, informed choices. These will ensure that both your reputation as a good employee and their reputation as fair employers are protected. As a side note-- are all milkers getting the same treatment?

As for the milk price here, I have already told the herdsman about the price drop and what that will do for the bottom line. He has talked to the other employees about it--I know this because one of them approached me for more information. We too will go to defining essential tasks and asking the employees to help find ways to be more efficient. We have alot of faith in the integrety of our crew-- I'll let you know what comes out of this weeks meeting.

Linda
 

born2run

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Thanks Linda...you've given me a lot to think about. I've thought about asking the herd manager to talk to the boss, but I very well may go directly to the boss myself. The herd manager wants a healthy herd, and a clean parlor is on the bottom of his list, even though he has told me he appreciates it. They're trying to get a "cheaper" employee to the pressure washing, which is fine with me. Let me be clear. I do not WANT over 50 hours a week. I was simply doing this because no one else was. I'm not exactly shedding tears about not being able to clean. What I need to discuss with the boss is this...1. There are shifts that a lot of little things result in us shutting off the pump 15 min. later than normal. What do I do about those nights? 2. I work 13 days, which runs me up to 104 hours on a good pay period. Do you want to find someone to come in and replace me for those 4 hours or will I be paid?

Is everyone being treated this way? The answer is a resounding "no." I am the highest paid there right under the herd manager, so I'm getting the brunt of this. I've asked other people working there, and so far everyone is getting paid for all their work.

A normal shift will only take 8 hours, and from this standpoint I don't care if that's all I'm paid for. On a shift like the last one, I was able to treat two new cows, and retreat another one all within the required time frame, simply because I brought the Banamine up with me before the start of the shift. I try to know the herd's records so I don't have to be making needless trips to the computer. This helps in fast decision making as weather to treat or not.

I don't mind volunteering time when it comes to herd health. I feel good about what I'm doing, and in the long run could overlook not getting paid. I cannot overlook lack of compensation when I pressure wash walls for 1 1/2 hours after the shift ends.

A normal night...I go in at 7 PM and clean waterers for 45 min. I like this for more one than one reason. It gives me an opportunity to walk the pens and see bleedoffs, heats, or health problems.

Done with that, I clean the kitchen and living area, which no one else would do if I didn't. ;-) Then I'll focus on the front tile of the parlor and the milkhouse floor, all of which get filthy in a quick hurry. After I clean waterers I really can't start on a wall and than expect to be done in time for milking. This is the schedule I've established for myself, and it works well for the time frame I'm allotted.

Edited to add that I've did a lot of thinking, and simply decided to cut the hours on my own. If they confront me then I'll tell them why I'm doing what I am, but knowing them very well I doubt they'll say anything. It's summer so going to work later isn't exactly going to torture me. :)
 

milkmaid

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Jerry/Linda/K-Shires....quick question for ya'll. I've got two 8 month old heifers that are running around 500lbs or so. Both of them have one extra teat. Both of them are destined for the dairy sale in Jerome as springers...hopefully early next year. Everything I've ever heard says to cut that "extra" off - esp if they're going through the sale and they're not ones I'll be keeping - but I was just wondering if there were any "cons" to cutting extras off. Infection? and what's the chance of that? How about how long you can wait before doing it? I'd prolly have it done in about 2 weeks; I need to make a vet appointment for one of my older heifers for an ultrasound and I could take these two calves in at the same time. Any opinions on removing the extras?
 
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J and L

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Milkmaid, Just cut them off. We have done this for 30 years without any problems. It is part of our calfhood vac program at 4-6 months. This could be done earlyer as long as you can tell the correct ones to cut off.
Jerry
 

milkmaid

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OK, I'll do that then...er, have my vet do that then. LOL. I'm a little hesitant about trying it first time. I'll watch him do these two calves and then in the future I'll do it myself.

So many things to do with heifers, getting them from bottle calf to springer! Start them, wean, vaccinate with 5-way and 8 way, revaccinate with those two, worm, make a vet appointment for bangs vaccinations, dehorn, remove extra teats, constantly watch the feed rations to make sure they're getting a proper diet, get them big enough to breed on schedule, breed, get them to settle...

hope selling them will be the easy part after all this! :lol: In the past I've always bought in the spring, sold in the fall, never wintered anything over and never dealt with heifers that were old enough to be cycling. Nowdays I'm wintering them over and trying to go from day old to first calf.

Now how about a thought provoking question? If you were to look at your heifer herd and were in a position to only keep the best heifers and sell the rest through a dairy sale...what would you be looking for in the heifers you'd be keeping? Body structure? and what exactly would be most important in body structure? feet/legs? body length/depth? Temperament? Fertility? Assuming, of course, that you had no idea which cows the heifers were out of and therefore how well the dam did or did not produce. I know some dairies keep track of who's who and others don't. Would how fast the calf grew - average daily gain - or how early they matured come into account in your decision?
 
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J and L

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When we first bought our herd in 1978 the RHA was 11,900#, which was below the state average for the time. We soon realized that this was in great part because Jerry's dad did not keep track of which heifers were from which cows. In the fall he would have heifer buyers in and let them pick 10 heifers and put the rest in the herd. Of course they always took the best looking ones-- and good looks often come from genetic improvement-- so he was selling the production improvement as well. We started keep records and by the time the first identified heifers were springing realized that the herd was almost split 50-50 with half averaging about 12,000-# of milk and the other half 16,000+# of milk. We started selecting keepers based almost entirely on records and raised our RHA by over 1500#/year each next three years with no other changes in management-- and not all the keepers were pretty and some of the sold were gorgeous. The $100 less from the dealer for not pretty was easily made up for by getting more milk out of the ones we kept.

We figured production would keep us in business-- and give us time to breed ugly out. :D

As for looking at what a buyer might want, I have a problem answering here because we have never bought heifers from herds without records. Typically if I decide the cattle are worth buying I cut a deal to buy everything-- no sorting. This is, in large part, because my experiences have shown that the outside is not nearly as important as the inside:ie genetics-- 20+ years of AI-- and biosecurity. There is an old supposedly Indian saying that goes like this "If you want beautiful children, marry not the only fair maiden of the tribe." In otherwords, even a terrible herd will occassionally produce an exceptional looking or production heifer, so I've always looked for consistency within the herd for both milk and looks in making decisions.

Jockeys will always take pretty over records for small number sales because farmers like to see pretty in a group of heifers they buy and records may or may not be accurate. If they are buying only two or three they will likely be grouping them with others. For an experienced dairy buyer, "pretty" usually means the dairy character most of us associate with years of AI-- fairly tall, deep ribbed, legs more posty than not, solid center supports and proper teat placement. I would call these, particularly the feet and udder traits, the functional parts of a cow. BST can make a poor milker give milk but nothing can change legs that cannot take concrete, size that lacks feed capacity, an udder that is easily stepped on, or mastitis that comes from unit slippage caused by poor teat placement.

As a side, one year we had 9 heifers to sell and had 3 buyers look at them. Each buyer found "real problems" with one animal in the group-- and each buyer picked a different "problem" heifer LOL . We split the group and ended up with 2 less that totally pleased buyers but top prices for all :D . Dairy sales would be a great way to avoid having a jockey try to convince you that your animals are somehow lacking so you will accept less.

Years ago we did sell some flighty heifers with "mean" dams simply because we figured that someone with a conventional parlor could milk them with less risk than us in a stall barn. Once that couple of lines were gone we haven't had a problem. I do believe that a parlor of any type makes it clear to the cows that when they enter the area they will be touched, etc. In the stall barn the rest area was the same as the milk area and easily startled heifers were more likely to react to someone entering "their" space.

Sorry I can't be of more help-
Linda
 

milkmaid

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Oh that does help a lot Linda :D Thanks for taking the time to give me a lengthy response like that.

I'm thinking about taking a trip one of these days to Jerome to watch the dairy sale. I've never been down to watch it and I want to see what sort of heifers they are that bring the top money down there. So far I've just been going by the rumors, and most of them say BIG SPRINGERS bring the good money. 1200lbs plus. I'm sure conformation plays a part in who sells high and who doesn't...what I hope to gain from watching the sale is exactly WHAT people are looking for.

I'm assuming you've watched the dairy sales before. Would you know if it's ever announced going through the ring if the springer in question is vaccinated (with something other than bangs), out of a known dam with known production records, maybe what sire the springer herself is by, um....how about what she's bred to? Or do they just run them through and you get what you see?

I have a heifer here that's short bred, and I have a vet appointment for next Friday for an ultrasound to determine if she's carrying a heifer calf or bull calf. If it turns out to be a heifer calf, I think that'd make her worth a lot more if it were announced going through the ring, right? Out of my younger stock - I have quite a few young heifers - I'd like to end up breeding them all with sexed semen and then follow it with an ultrasound to confirm the sex of the fetus. Seems to me that could significantly up their value IF and only IF the buyers will know about it.

And I do have something up my sleeve with the questions about retaining heifers...but that's another story for another post. LOL. ;-)

Fellow near me was theorizing on what age to have his heifers calving. Me personally, I'm raising them to maturity and therefore breeding and selling just as fast as I can get them there. (The bred heifer I mentioned above is 72 days bred today, 1200lbs, and turns 15 months old on the 21st of April.) I saw an article in one of the magazines - think it was Dairy Herd Managment? - that said something about getting your heifers to calve at 24 months of age (not later!) and when I was browsing the DHI site it comes up that the average age of springers in my region is about 26.3 months or something like that.

Anyways, this fellow was theorizing that his heifers would produce better and hold up longer as cows if they were given MORE time to mature before having their first calf. He was holding his heifers out to 28-30 months before their first calf. (Of course I asked him to tell me, sometime in the future, how this experiment turns out.) I know I've seen the articles about how growing too fast reduces production in the first lactation. I'll have to take a pen and paper to it someday and see which way comes out most economical - calving early, at 21 months or less and getting the heifers into production sooner but getting lower production as a result, OR calving at 24-26 months same as most folks standardly do and getting the best production. I'd have to have a really good reason to be holding heifers out longer than 24 months before their first calf. Sooner they can pay back their cost the better off I am.

You have any thoughts or opinions on that subject above?

I'm off to work now - thanks again Linda!
 
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J and L

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Lots of experience on this one.

First....There is only one correct answer to "What age should heifers freshen?" .......... and that is "It depends."

This is another area where there are many choices so having knowledge about YOUR operation and how your choices will effect it is critical. For any operation, profit is gross income minus expenses. Expenses are determined by input costs and the key inputs with heifers are feed, labor, and housing. The input that is shortest will be the factor that limits you heifer raising. Remember to include interest as an expense. If you are not borrowing you could be using the opportunity to invest your money elsewhere-- and interest you are not earning is a cost of keeping the money in feed, animals, etc. Look to what you could make on 2-5 year CDs for the rate to use.

In all cases you need to consider what the "best use" is for the inputs you have.

Maximizing income is different for selling heifers than it is for milking your own heifers. You are counting on only the value of the springer, not on the potential income from milk like we would.

We've played our heifer hands several different ways over the years, so the easiest way I can answer this is to tell what we've done and why.

When we were in the stall barn we had only 54 spots for cows and did not want to switch cows so maximizing income with stalls as the limiting factor meant bigger #/cow. To do this we wanted, within reason, for heifers to be well grown and ready to give big milk in the first lactation and we tended to average have 25-26 months to freshening. We had enough space to house 60-65 heifers (27 months worth) and had enough feed and enough labor too. On the down side, we found that mature-cow sized heifers-- those over 27 months-- were more likely to have calving problems. Our vet told us that heifers that were bigger and older when bred had the capacity to grow a bigger calf and that with age they had less flexibility in their pelvic area. That was a receipe for problems and occasionally we lost production (or lost the heifer) because of freshening issues.

When we hit some drought years, buying at high feed prices became the limiting factor and freshening older heifers showed to be more expensive than the gain, so we ratcheted the age down to a solid 24 months.

After our third (and last lol) baby, labor became the limiting factor. We decided that the best way for the two of us to manage was to freshen semi-seasonal-- trying for the bulk of the animals to freshen March-May and Sept-Nov. That had us holding off breeding to get them into our "windows" and put us back to the 25-26 month age. Using the "windows" let us stop freshening in the winter months when an injured heifer meant a culled heifer so we had a couple more springers to sell each year.

In '93 we went through our first phase of expansion. Our game plan changed-- we had surplus room for milkers and proportionally less room and labor for heifers. Using feed for milk returned the best money so getting the heifers in ASAP became a priority so we changed the "window" to exclude only Dec 20- March 1 and aggressively bred for less than 24 months freshening. Cheap corn and concentrates meant that we could push growth and get them in at 1250# early. We freshened animals as young as 21 months ith a minimal anount of trouble.

Like most freestall operations we are perpetually trying to grow milking numbers so we start breeding at 13 months. Freestalls offer the flexibility of having more than one animal per stall so we now look at # shipped/milking stall/year as one of our measurements. Young animals give a bit less milk but balance that with handling overcrowding well so the milk/stall stays high and freshening younger also gets them to that second laction where really big milk can kick in. Cost wise, if space for milkers is not limited, getting those girls milking early usually means more profit over the life of the animal. With solid rations heifers can grow while milking well and get into their second lactation by 36 months of age. and because cows produce more in the first 1/3 of their lactations, the more "first thirds" she has over a lifetime, the more milk she will produce. Waiting an extra 6 months to freshen at 28-30 months forfits 6 months of milking time (1/2 of a lactation) and what could be 1/2 of another calf in her lifetime. For our operation, I can't pencil out waiting on purpose.

Since '93 we have typically held repeats and bred some early to avoid the Dec 20-March 1 window so our average conception age tends to move over the course of the year.

This year the parlor will not be completed until September. We held off on breeding about 15 heifers (26 month freshening) and have bred about 20 heifers for 21-22 month freshening to maximize a Sept-Nov freshening window. So the "average" looks like 24 months... but the management getting there is strategic. We are now in our non-breeding window (except for the clean-up bull.)

For your operation: how much do you figure it will cost to raise your girls? How much per day is the feed for a 1200# animal? Remember that the bigger the animal the more expensive it becomes to add weight because you have more animal to maintain.
As for the sexing-- yes animals with heifers could be worth more-- most likely to someone you know because they will trust your records. At smaller auctions, announcing that certain of your heifers carry females implies that those not announced carry bulls.... so you might want to consider that in choosing where or when you sell what. (Maybe send only known female embryos to one sale and unannounced (ie:male) to the next.)

Be sure to look at the costs carefully. Look at the marginal return for the increased number of female embryos. If sexed semen has a lower conception rate you will be selling older heifers on the average as you will have more repeats-- so you will have increased inout costs for semen, feed and labor on each group. These costs should be allocated only to the female embryos above 50% because theoretcially you could get 50% without the increased costs that come with sexed semen.

Also remember that while sexed semen may have a 85-90% heifer rate as an average, averages are made up of random streaks of bulls and heifers over time so it is possible to get 50/50 or less even on sexed semen in small lots.Always look at worse case scenerios as real possibilities and only bet what you can afford to lose. (so what happens to profitability if you will get is 4 heifers and 7 conceptions from a rack of 10 --will you still break even or can you afford the loss?)

Vet expenses are big. Having 50 heifers to check at one time has alot less cost than 5 so the choice might be different at different numbers.Our vet has a $25 call charge and $80/hour so pg checking one heifer would cost at least $45 (assuming that she was caught up and cooperative-- 15 min including clean up and set up)

Our decisions might change again in time too. Last year when we were making the decision between expand and hold steady we looked at using fetal sexing in choosing which cows we or heifers we would sell to keep numbers down. We would then have moved the expansion to 2008 when all of those heifer embryos would freshen. I can forsee us doing this in the future. (Another reason to buy only whole herds lol. If they want to sell selectively I might get only bulls calves!!!)

You definitely have the right ideas for selling your heifers--- knowing who your potential buyers might be is very important as is the knowing which months will have the best demand. (November will demand higher prices than January so a 1200# Nov freshener might sell for as much and thus be more profitable than a Jan. 1300#.) If you have a reliable buyer who trusts your records you might want to use sexed semen for 1st service at 13-13.5 months and less expensive semen after that to keep your average age and thus average expense down. (female calves are smaller ie: easier calving & the knowledge of a heifer calf might make the size "penalty" less.) Be sure to look at all costs. Remember that records are only worth something if the buyer trusts them. And most importantly, keep reviewing your decisions because today's best options are not necessarily tomorrow's, next months, or next year's (so we have learned).
You've just completed Dairy Business 101 from the school of hard knocks lol. :D
Linda
 

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