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Crossbreeding systems

D.R. Cattle

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For those that have a good understanding of breeding systems, I need a little advice. I currently purchase all females from an outside source. These females are pure Braford and are doing well for me. I use heat tolerant angus bulls. The desired effect was to end up with black baldy calves, however this is not the case. Seems the Brahman influence in the cows is prohibiting the full baldy, and mottled white faces are the result. I'm well pleased with the calves performance. Just wondering if I could make bull adjustments to acheive the desired results, without changing my cows/heifers, and still achieve good performance I already have. Thoughts?
 

txag

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i'll start out by saying that i'm probably not going to give you the answer you're looking for. the white-face is kind of a goofy thing when crossbreeding. while the white face is dominant it is not the same as other dominant traits like polled and black color. w/the white face you get various degrees in between the pure white face & no white face. when crossbreeding white-face cattle, there are no set rules for what happens. often when crossing with another breed, you lose some of the white face.....you either will get goggle-eyes or mottle-faces. there is almost nothing to indicate the amount of white you lose. we have registered polled herefords and when crossing them with brangus bulls, we get anything from what you're referring to as the "bald face" to almost fully mottled. straight-bred herefords crossed w/gerts almost always give a mottled face rather than a bald face. crossing w/a brahman, you can get anything from the bald face to a mottled face to a striped face w/almost no white at all.
w/all that said, i really don't see that there should be a problem marketing mottle-faced calves as opposed to baldie calves.
 

dun

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The only way to make "fairly" sure that you will end up with baldies is to reintroduce the Hereford. i.e. use a Hereford bull. Then it's still a crap shoot, but with better odds.

dun
 

D.R. Cattle

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TXAG thanks. At least I know I am doing all I can, even if I can't get the perfect "super baldy". Just curious. Even the goggle eyes as long as baldy appearance are quite impressive. I had even considered a Black Baldy bull, but I am afraid that would just muddle everything up and give me a bunch of mongrels. Crossbreeding and heterosis are a few areas I need to do more reading on. I think what I am doing is called "three breed terminal rotation"? Correct me if otherwise. I spent a lot of time in the saddle and only within the last several years had exposure to the management portion of it all.
 

D.R. Cattle

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So Dun, would a cross bred bull (ANGUS X HEREFORD) give me mongrel calves? Or reduce heterosis? You guys are great. Thanks for the advice.
 

txag

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like dun said, the best way would probably be to re-introduce a hereford but then you may end up w/more than a bald face.....white neck, white belly, & still no guarantee.

as for the three-breed terminal, what are you doing w/the heifers? typically a three-breed terminal is one in which no offspring will be kept for reproduction (thus the terminal). a by-the-book terminal would be a bos taurus (english---hereford or angus)/bos indicus (brahman) female with a continental bull. at this point, they say you have reached the maximum heterosis in your females (cows) & the offspring.
 

D.R. Cattle

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All calves sold. 3/8 Brahmanx5/8 Hereford cows-heifers...Purebred Angus bulls. Good Braford heifers are easy for me to come by in my area.
 

dun

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D.R. Cattle":2wqkuc4s said:
So Dun, would a cross bred bull (ANGUS X HEREFORD) give me mongrel calves? Or reduce heterosis? You guys are great. Thanks for the advice.
If you use a Hereford you're going to reduce the heterosis, even if he's crossed. If you're selling all the calves why worry about the baldy aspect. Use a real buttkicker Angus bull and get paid on the quality of the calves that can be seen rather then the gimic of a blady. Not that baldies area gimic, but trying to market based on them is, that's just my opinion. If you get some baldies be glad.
Of course avery market is different, but quality black and red calves all sell pretty much the same. Baldy heifers may bring a bit more then black or red heifers, but they have to be every bit as good as the solids.

dun
 

sam

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last year i had a brangus bull with some brafords, tigerstripes, and white face, had black mottle face calves. the heifer calves brought more money than any heifer calves i have sold in a long time. my steer calves got cocked a little for having a little to much ear. ther is absolutely nothing wrong with having black mottle face calves.
 

A. delaGarza

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you could use a Simmental bull and you will increase heterosis and you will still have white faces

D.R. Cattle":11ws501y said:
TXAG thanks. At least I know I am doing all I can, even if I can't get the perfect "super baldy". Just curious. Even the goggle eyes as long as baldy appearance are quite impressive. I had even considered a Black Baldy bull, but I am afraid that would just muddle everything up and give me a bunch of mongrels. Crossbreeding and heterosis are a few areas I need to do more reading on. I think what I am doing is called "three breed terminal rotation"? Correct me if otherwise. I spent a lot of time in the saddle and only within the last several years had exposure to the management portion of it all.
 

txag

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A. delaGarza said:
you could use a Simmental bull and you will increase heterosis and you will still have white faces

still no guarantee on the white face (probably blaze instead of bald w/which you may be docked at the ring.)
 

Beefy

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If its just a personal thing that you want more baldies you could use a black baldy bull and sacrifice a little heterosis for MAYBE more bald faces. But the mottled face calves are just as good as the baldies. if the mottled faced calves are bringing less money (for some strange reason) than the baldies you could advertise them as all the same breeding and that might help but if its just personal i'd just try to get over it. i mean you are probably getting a lot of baldies, correct? i would personally rahter have a mottle or goggled eye than a baldy, b/c of eye problems. anyway, as far as maximizing heterosis Alejandro hit the nail on the head with his suggestion about using simmental bulls. however, you will probably get more blaze face calves than baldies using a simmental. if you use a baldy the calves will be 9/16 hereford, 3/16 brahman, and 4/16 angus. i would expect that you would get a few more baldies but also possibly some reds with white faces. i wouldnt consider these calves mongrels, and you probably wouldnt even notice a decline in heterosis although there would be less than with a pb angus bull. however, the extra hereford might not be such a great idea with all the insects in the state of florida. I wouldnt rule out using a brangus bull, i mean you would still only have 3/8 brahman in the calves and 5/16 each of hereford and angus. anyway, my 2 cents.
 

jcarkie

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:shock: i am using the braford bull on black and black white face heifers and they come out mottley faced. have you seen or heard of the black hereford. i am curious how they would work on brafords.
http://www.blackhereford.com :?: :)
 

dun

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Another thought just flitted through my demented skull.
If you plan on not keeping heifers for replacementsm why not use an Angus bull on the heifers and a black Simmenthal or Gelbvieh bull on the cows. If you don;t keep any heifers all breedings are terminal anyway.
Just a thought

dun
 

A. delaGarza

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txag":2paz31va said:
A. delaGarza":2paz31va said:
you could use a Simmental bull and you will increase heterosis and you will still have white faces

still no guarantee on the white face (probably blaze instead of bald w/which you may be docked at the ring.)

you maybe right that isn't 100% guarantee but he will have at least more heterosis
 

A. delaGarza

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txag":rh7u9sdi said:
A. delaGarza":rh7u9sdi said:
you could use a Simmental bull and you will increase heterosis and you will still have white faces

still no guarantee on the white face (probably blaze instead of bald w/which you may be docked at the ring.)

you maybe right that isn't 100% guarantee but at least the calves will have more heterosis
 
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