Crossbreeding Breed advice

[shortybreeder]

Hi, I am trying to figure out which breeds I should cross to create a very efficient calf that will have a very impressive carcass. We strictly use A.I., no bulls on the farm since the 1970's, so we will be using the bulls that best represent what their breeds claim to be known for (marbling in angus, efficiency in herefords, etc.) I plan to finish out the calves on free choice hay with 2% of their weight worth of grain mix. I want a high yield with a high grade, (shooting for prime YG1's in the future), and I plan to direct-market the beef. The goal is to breed for carcass traits, and cull on fertility. Unlike the average farmer (age 50-60) time is on my side, and with any kind of luck I will have a solid 40 years of breeding ahead of me. :banana: I will raise up 100% of the calves, so hide color and market-trends are of little importance to me. I plan to raise all heifers as replacements, and each female gets 2 breedings per year (not counting breedings that may occur during a heat wave). If she doesn't settle in the first two breedings, she's getting butchered and sold as a burger animal. As for environmental factors, we are located in Minnesota, and face typical Minnesota weather. I can't decide between a Charolais X Angus 2 way cross (angus sired females bred to charolais, charolais sired females bred to angus) or a Simangus 2 way cross (see above), but I have also thought about 3-way or even 4-way crosses involving shorthorns. These animals need to finish in a timely manner, so scottish highlanders and texas longhorns are pretty much out. I would like to keep the frame moderate for the cowherd, but if the yield percentages stay acceptable I won't worry too much about it.

Size of the operation: Will start with 10 cows, but plan to grow based on replacement heifer success and demand for local beef.

Thanks!

p.s. If any knowledgeable shorthorn breeders are reading this, I also have a post in the cattle breeding section titled "What should I breed my heifer to" where I am seeking advice on which bull to breed my heifer to, and I would greatly appreciate anyone's :2cents: on the matter! Thanks!

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Seems like you got figured out.

 

[Backbone Ranch]

I don't know of any crossbred cattle off the top of my head, but Murray Greys might answer your question. We finish our steers on grass and we direct market the beef to our customers. Our steers on grass have graded mostly choice with a few grading prime. The steers have to endure the 108 degree Texas summers and still gain on grass alone. The most recent steer we took in had a live weight of 1490 lbs and a carcass weight of 904 lbs. His ribeye steaks were prime and there wasn't a single vein of gristle throughout all of his steaks. Shown below is a grass-fed Murray Grey steak. It was extremely tender and I think this one was graded choice. Murray Greys as a breed have a higher prevalence of tenderness and marbling genes than most breeds.

(These steaks were the size of a dinner plate!)
The Murray Greys finish quickly on grain because they are weaned heavy and their mature weight is 1200-1400 lbs, we have some heifers that are weaned at 48% of their mature body weight. The bull calf shown below was 682 lbs at weaning. He was 55% of his mother's body weight.

Murray Greys as a breed are extremely docile. You can weigh and ear tag the calves at birth by walking up to the calf, but the cows are protective enough to barrel after a coyote. The calves weigh between 60-80 lbs at birth. Murray Greys have high fertility; our yearling bull bred all of his cows/ heifers in the first cycle.
The Murray Grey heifers are consistently high quality. This heifer is only 6 months old.

 

[HDRider]

Backbone - How old was this guy? The most recent steer you took live weight of 1490 / carcass weight of 904 lbs.

 

[shortybreeder]

BackBone, those are some very nice looking calves! My only issue with raising the Murray Grays is trying to find breeding stock nearby, and finding bulls to breed them to. Out of the companies around here that offer A.I. services, Genex is the only one that has any Murray Gray semen, and the only bull available is Fox Hill Francois.

 

[Backbone Ranch]

We held him over a bit longer than we should have because we didn't have any more takers for beef. He was 2 years and 4 months of age. He had an average daily gain of 1.56 lbs between weaning and processing time.

 

[HDRider]

We held him over a bit longer than we should have because we didn't have any more takers for beef. He was 2 years and 4 months of age. He had an average daily gain of 1.56 lbs between weaning and processing time.

Seeing you got about 60% out of that guy, is that about average for you?

How much finished weight did you get out of him?

All things considered, 1.56 ADG is pretty good.

Thanks...

 

[Backbone Ranch]

60% is average for us, but he was the biggest one so far. Normally the carcass weights are between 650 and 800 lbs from steers that had live weights in the 1100 to 1200 pound range. I don't remember how much beef we got from the largest steer, but we typically get 450 to 480 lbs of beef from the steers with the carcass weights of 675-750 lbs.

 

[shortybreeder]

Any thoughts on Simmental vs. Charolais in regards to carcass quality/yield? I'm thinking Angus is probably my best bet on improving grade due to their marbling, but I also need a breed that will increase the hanging weight of the steers that I finish--without sacrificing dressing percentage. The heifers that result due to this cross must also perform well as mothers. What about crossing Balancers (gelbvieh X angus) with a simmental or charolais? I have a friend who raises extremely high quality gelbvieh's that I would buy as my foundation heifers, and then I would breed them to one of the top marbling bulls in the Angus breed, then choose a high Ribeye Area bull from either the Simmental or Charolais breeds.

Backbone-is there a breed that would work very nicely with the Murray Grey's that could create a nice cross? It is impressive that any animal can gain weight in 108 degree+ weather (I put fans on my holstein feeders when it breaks 80), but how do they handle subzero temperatures? My cows have access to a shed that protects them from wind, and their pasture is hilly with lots of trees, so they are protected from wind--just not the subzero air temps.

 

[Backbone Ranch]

In Texas, we don't have sub-zero temperatures, but people are successfully raising them in Canada and the Snowy Mountains of Victoria, Australia. Murray Greys have a darker pigmentation than other breeds that are the same color. You can tell by looking at their dark noses. Murray Greys come in different shades ranging from silver-grey to black.
Murray Grey/ Angus crosses work really well. That is the only cross that we have, but we have 3, 4 year old Murray Grey/ Angus crosses. One of the cows is shown below with her young heifer from this year. Their first calves ranged between 604 and 620 lbs at weaning.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Limousin will help with yield, and if you look around a little won't hurt your grade.

 

[Gators Rule]

Any thoughts on Simmental vs. Charolais in regards to carcass quality/yield?

If i were trying to balance carcass quality steers AND produce maternal type heifers, then Simm wins out

 

[tsmaxx47]

try some express ranch angus over line 1 Herefords.........produces some awesome calves and very maternal heifers.

 

[Jessica06]

Prime YG1's? Lofty goals! And on that same note, why do you feel like you have to crossbreed to get there? You don't think there is a breed that can do it alone? Honestly, I think the obvious choice is to go straight Angus. (And no, I don't raise Angus.) That's exactly what the breed has been developed to do. That being said, IF you do choose to crossbreed for both high quality carcass traits and maternal characteristics, Charolais has no place in the conversation. Remember, muscle is the enemy of quality grade, as well the enemy of fertility! It takes a greater amount of marbling in a larger ribeye to reach the same quality grade as a smaller ribeye, since grade is determined as the Percentage of marbling, not the total amount. And besides, your average consumer probably doesn't WANT a gigantic 14" Prime steak. Look at Wagyus. Super high quality, very little muscle. ....What about crossing Wagyu with Angus? Or with Simangus?

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Not gonna see many Yield grade 1 with straight angus. At least it will take a while to line up the genetics.

 

[shortybreeder]

ricebelt-in one of the publications that I read from the American Shorthorn Association, there was an article about a shorthorn breeder who raises all of his own calves up to finish, and in one trailer of heifers and steers that he sent to the processor, he had 2 heifers that were Prime YG1's. It is possible, it just takes careful breeding selection and some good luck. This wasn't by any definition a large operation, it was just a small family farm.
I am starting to lean towards Angus, but I would really like to take advantage of hybrid vigor/Heterosis. Any thoughts on shorthorn X angus calves? Obviously I would start with shorthorn mothers, because there are very few good shorthorn bulls that are safe for use in a small angus female, but a good shorthorn shouldn't have any issues with even the scariest of the angus bulls. Shorthorn cows also tend to be more docile and more maternal IMO.
Any thoughts on shorthorns vs. gelbviehs for crossing with a terminal angus bull?

Thank you to everyone for the input so far!

 

[3waycross]

ricebelt-in one of the publications that I read from the American Shorthorn Association, there was an article about a shorthorn breeder who raises all of his own calves up to finish, and in one trailer of heifers and steers that he sent to the processor, he had 2 heifers that were Prime YG1's. It is possible, it just takes careful breeding selection and some good luck. This wasn't by any definition a large operation, it was just a small family farm.
I am starting to lean towards Angus, but I would really like to take advantage of hybrid vigor/Heterosis. Any thoughts on shorthorn X angus calves? Obviously I would start with shorthorn mothers, because there are very few good shorthorn bulls that are safe for use in a small angus female, but a good shorthorn shouldn't have any issues with even the scariest of the angus bulls. Shorthorn cows also tend to be more docile and more maternal IMO.
Any thoughts on shorthorns vs. gelbviehs for crossing with a terminal angus bull?
Thank you to everyone for the input so far!

My buddy has been rnning GV X Shortie cows on a Red Angus bull for years. Not only do the steers make great eating but the heifers are gorgeous!

 

[shortybreeder]

3way-I have a very nice shorthorn heifer that I need to breed in the spring (if it ever comes...) would a gelbvieh bull (born in 04, CE score of 8) be safe on her? There are also a couple of balancer options available that have CE scores of 13 and 14 (03 and 09 respectively). Here's the link to the page that has their info: http://genex.crinet.com/addedattraction ... eh&lang=EN

Thanks!

 

[3waycross]

3way-I have a very nice shorthorn heifer that I need to breed in the spring (if it ever comes...) would a gelbvieh bull (born in 04, CE score of 8) be safe on her? There are also a couple of balancer options available that have CE scores of 13 and 14 (03 and 09 respectively). Here's the link to the page that has their info: http://genex.crinet.com/addedattraction ... eh&lang=EN

Thanks!

If you are going to buy semen form them use the National bull. He has great marbling numbers. He is also a little pencil gutted to she would neeed to be a little more roomy to use on him.. If she has some capacity i would use hm in a heartbeat.

Check out Bull Barn for GV also. If you want to talk about any of their bulls pm me your phone number and i will help you as much as i can!

 

[Jessica06]

To my knowledge, the vast majority of shorthorns are bred for the showring, which doesn't equate very well to productive cattle. But hey! That's more of my perception, not personal experience. There are cattle in every breed that excel in certain areas, the trick is in finding them. Between the two? I would probably...no, definitely, choose Gelbviehs over shorthorns. Food for thought; heterosis will help out your growth and yield a lot more than your quality grade. People pay a premium for quality...don't get too hung up on the yield and heterosis side of things! Excited to see what you come up with! We are 30, and have some pretty ambitious goals ourselves. It is an exciting time to be in the cattle business.