Crossbred bulls

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mtnman

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We use both crossbred and straightbred bulls.

We weigh every calf, every year.

I can fully document that there is absolutely no difference in performance or uniformity of calves resulting from either crossbred or purebred bulls.

There are differences occasionally for traits like horns, scurs, brindles, but never for the triats that count, like fertility, and weight.

My guess is that there isn't a single person on this post other than me that has actually taken the time to get the help to make a statistical comparison.

Everybody always tells me that the crossbred bulls will make for more variation. My records over the last 15-20 years says they are dead wrong, or full as a Christmas goose, as was said earlier.

I've had crossbred bulls produce less variation, too. Some more, some less, average is that there is no difference.

Seriously, I have had folks call me a liar with my records right there in front of them.

I took my data to my local math teacher for a start, now with the internet, it's pretty easy to lean how to do the stats.

mtnman
 

ALACOWMAN

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mtnman":3ts7w5ks said:
We use both crossbred and straightbred bulls.

We weigh every calf, every year.

I can fully document that there is absolutely no difference in performance or uniformity of calves resulting from either crossbred or purebred bulls.

There are differences occasionally for traits like horns, scurs, brindles, but never for the triats that count, like fertility, and weight.

My guess is that there isn't a single person on this post other
  • than me that has actually taken the time to get the help to make a statistical comparison
.

Everybody always tells me that the crossbred bulls will make for more variation. My records over the last 15-20 years says they are dead wrong, or full as a Christmas goose, as was said earlier.

I've had crossbred bulls produce less variation, too. Some more, some less, average is that there is no difference.

Seriously, I have had folks call me a liar with my records right there in front of them.

I took my data to my local math teacher for a start, now with the internet, it's pretty easy to lean how to do the stats.

mtnman
well thankfully i dont have to have someone to show me the difference i can dicearn for my own what is b.s. and what aint. it dont take but one calf crop to set you back a few years and i dont have to have a consultant to show me either. you can keep your cross bred bull's and the dam horse they rode in on. when breeding dwarfs like you i would venture too say thay aint much difference. a dwarf is a dwarf no matter what. a bulging head and pot gut is the norm
 

mtnman

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Yep, that's what they all say.

7,000 records in front of them, and they will fight it tooth and nail.

Such is the way with old ideas.

Or maybe I know how to pick bulls, I don't know, maybe that's it.

FWIT, my dwarves weigh a touch over 1250. Just because they are dead on 5 frame doesn't make them dwarves.

Great, a 5 frame 1250 pound cow is a dwarf now.


mtnman
 

ALACOWMAN

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mtnman":nu0iofb4 said:
Yep, that's what they all say.

7,000 records in front of them, and they will fight it tooth and nail.

Such is the way with old ideas.

Or maybe I know how to pick bulls, I don't know, maybe that's it.

FWIT, my dwarves weigh a touch over 1250. Just because they are dead on 5 frame doesn't make them dwarves.

Great, a 5 frame 1250 pound cow is a dwarf now.


mtnman
won't comment on your bull buying skills. but as good as you think you are you didnt get there without some experiance and that came from buying a dink. aleast once you your magnificent career.
 

mnmtranching

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There is nothing wrong with using crossbred bulls.

I use registered Charolais and Black Angus herd bulls.

But I also have two small pastures where I run 12 or 13 pairs. To save money and becouse it works well for me I use black baldy bulls from my own Herford cows. I've been getting calves I'm very happy with.

mnmt
 

ALACOWMAN

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you also know what your CB bulls can do and are capable of doing when your raising them your self . like i said at the start a cross bred bull being used for a certain goal is fine but alot are a crap shoot. and i made a big one with mine for a small breeder like me it hurt like he!! trying to move foward and took myself back a few years instead. building a herd is a slow prossess. one miss Q and your are kicking your own a$$
 

UG

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ALACOWMAN said:
you also know what your CB bulls can do and are capable of doing when your raising them your self . like i said at the start a cross bred bull being used for a certain goal is fine but alot are a crap shoot.

ALACOWMAN,

There is a tremendous amount of variation in the calves that many purebred bulls sire as well. We breed all cows artificially and do not use clean-up bulls. Every cow and calf on our place is sired by what are suppose to be the breeds best bulls. We still get a tremendous amount of variation out of some of the new bulls that we try...and they are purebred bulls. I'm gotten a little smarter since entering middle-age and seldom use younger, less proven bulls, but even still I still get the occasional surprise.
 

ALACOWMAN

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UG":1cifx6oz said:
ALACOWMAN":1cifx6oz said:
you also know what your CB bulls can do and are capable of doing when your raising them your self . like i said at the start a cross bred bull being used for a certain goal is fine but alot are a crap shoot.

ALACOWMAN,

There is a tremendous amount of variation in the calves that
  • many purebred bulls sire as well
. We breed all cows artificially and do not use clean-up bulls. Every cow and calf on our place is sired by what are suppose to be the breeds best bulls. We still get a tremendous amount of variation out of some of the new bulls that we try...and they are purebred bulls. I'm gotten a little smarter since entering middle-age and seldom use younger, less proven bulls, but even still I still get the occasional surprise.
no dought your right about that ug.......but what i really like is some one that some how knows the number figures but has never been out in the middle of the night. up too their shoulder pulling a calf or doctoring a cow but some how can spin enough yarn. too intimedate folks too thinking he is on top and you dont have a dam clue what your doing
 

mtnman

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The sorriest bull I've ever bought is better than lots of the bulls I've seen posted here, proclaimed to be good.

Not bragging, just the way I see it.

I had some great teachers.

mtnman
 

Brandonm2

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mtnman":pe652fna said:
We use both crossbred and straightbred bulls.

We weigh every calf, every year.

I can fully document that there is absolutely no difference in performance or uniformity of calves resulting from either crossbred or purebred bulls.

I will have to take your word on that; because no crossbred bull has ever bred any cow owned by me or my family; but if there is NO difference "in performance or uniformity of calves" why USE the crossbred bulls? If they aren't giving you a boost of hybrid vigour, what is the purpose of keeping a crossbred steer intact??
 

ALACOWMAN

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Brandonm2":1po5pull said:
mtnman":1po5pull said:
We use both crossbred and straightbred bulls.

We weigh every calf, every year.

I can fully document that there is absolutely no difference in performance or uniformity of calves resulting from either crossbred or purebred bulls.

I will have to take your word on that; because no crossbred bull has ever bred any cow owned by me or my family; but if there is NO difference "in performance or uniformity of calves" why USE the crossbred bulls? If they aren't giving you a boost of hybrid vigour, what is the purpose of keeping a crossbred steer intact??
education is a wonderfull thing brandon. ill have too give a big ol thumbs up on that one ;-)
 

mtnman

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I meant no difference in terms of the uniformity.

Some guys talk about crossbred bulls throwing a mix of performance, and some guys talk about them producing non-uniform calves.

I was trying to cover both bases. Too me they are just different ways of saying the same thing.



Ever here of complementarity? It's just as important or more important than heterosis.

I don't crossbred for pounds of calf from heterosis, I crossbreed for pounds of calf from crossbred mommas.

The calves are crossbred for complementarity.

FWIW, since my herd is crossbred, if I see a boost now, I know I bought the wrong bull.

mtnman
 

DOC HARRIS

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mntman wrote-
Ever here of complementarity? It's just as important or more important than heterosis.

I don't crossbred for pounds of calf from heterosis, I crossbreed for pounds of calf from crossbred mommas.

The calves are crossbred for complementarity.

FWIW, since my herd is crossbred, if I see a boost now, I know I bought the wrong bull.

mtnman
- - - - -COMPLIMENTARITY - the state or fact of being complementary; necessary interrelationship. . .

HETEROSIS (Hybrid vigor) - Amount by which measured traits of the crossbreds exceed the average of the two or more PUREBREDS that are mated to produce the crossbreds.

You say "...if I see a boost now, I know I bought the wrong bull." Are you saying that you are only attempting to recapitulate your crossbreeding program with complimentarity and NOT heterosis? :? If you are not attempting to exceed the average of your herd's production - - what ARE your breeding goals?

DOC HARRIS
 

KMacGinley

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ALACOWMAN":1u54vkcd said:
mtnman":1u54vkcd said:
Yep, that's what they all say.

7,000 records in front of them, and they will fight it tooth and nail.

Such is the way with old ideas.

Or maybe I know how to pick bulls, I don't know, maybe that's it.

FWIT, my dwarves weigh a touch over 1250. Just because they are dead on 5 frame doesn't make them dwarves.

Great, a 5 frame 1250 pound cow is a dwarf now.


mtnman
won't comment on your bull buying skills. but as good as you think you are you didnt get there without some experiance and that came from buying a dink. aleast once you your magnificent career.

Take that Mntmn! I guess he told you. :D
 

mtnman

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Doc,

It's pretty simple.

I know that eventually I will bump up against "the most" that my herd can do.

I can change "the most" by extra feed, but I don't think that is profitable.

Hence, I am at "the most" already, so I have no concern for changing my average.

I don't need to add more heterosis, I don't need to add more pounds of weaning weight, unless of course the more pounds comes from more pregnant cows, rather than bigger calves.

More isn't better for me, bigger isn't better for me, they both come with extra costs, and end up decreasing my bottom line.

Crossbred cows are the best thing, and crossbred calves hit the industry targets better than any straightbred. Those are facts the Angus guys refuse to admit.

mtnman
 

DOC HARRIS

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Crossbred cows are the best thing, and crossbred calves hit the industry targets better than any straightbred. Those are facts the Angus guys refuse to admit.
mtnman - Not ALL Angus guys. I am more than fully aware what cross breeding will accomplish, and I agree with you 100% in that regard. You are very fortunate to have arrived at the "pinnacle of perfection" in your breeding program to the point that further improvement is impossible! Congratulations! I guess that the next logical step is to minimize your overhead and capitalize on your savings. Optimal businesss plan!

DOC HARRIS
 

ALACOWMAN

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teletigger":3hx60lde said:
:D I need to slice some smoked salmon DOC. Is your tongue free? :lol: :p
regards
you seem too hang out in left field a lot did they ever find that mule ?..........the one that kicked you in the dam head :p
 

mtnman

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No pinnacle of perfection here, DOC.

Just some good crossbred cows, and calves.

I know not all Angus guys, but a pretty good bunch of them, ans the gernal trend is that way in my opinion.

mtnman
 

dun

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mtnman":1uvazxws said:
No pinnacle of perfection here, DOC.

Just some good crossbred cows, and calves.

I know not all Angus guys, but a pretty good bunch of them, ans the gernal trend is that way in my opinion.

mtnman

At last, someone that realizes that bigger isn;t alwasy better and will say it outloud.
What's better in one herd may be the opposite in another

dun
 
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